Q&A: AI Chatbots and Contemporary Worship, and 5 more.

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians. Pastor Wolfmuther here, pastor of St. Paul and Jesus Death Lutheran churches in Austin, Texas with Pastor Andrew Packer of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, I heard a rumor about you that for the third year in a row you've been snuffed in your application to be a shepherd in the live nativity and you'll be an angel again this year. [00:00:21] Speaker B: Is that true? I don't remember. It could be. [00:00:25] Speaker A: There's some more promises in a row now. [00:00:27] Speaker B: It could be like five. [00:00:28] Speaker A: We grew the shepherd beard. You applied, you went to the photo studio and had some glamour shots of you dressed as a shepherd. They're like, you're out, buddy. We got better shepherds. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Do you remember glamour shots? Because it's kind of amazing what they did to the ladies hair in those glamour shots back in the day. [00:00:46] Speaker A: I do. [00:00:48] Speaker B: If you haven't seen those people listening, you should check those out. They're something else. [00:00:52] Speaker A: We are answering your theology questions, which you can send at Wolfmuller co contact and send the questions there. It seems like we're not catching up. Really. It seems like the, the inflow. Even though we're doing seven questions a week, the in and out. Anyway, that's great. We'll see what we do today. But so before we get started though, I have, I have three advertisements. Super quick. Number one, our mutual friend Pansher Flammy is doing a trip to Germany next August, which is awesome. That's really great. So we'll put the info in the description if you're interested in going to to discover the Luther lands. It's a super cool tour. He's working with Globus too, which we've worked with and they just do an excellent job. That'll be a lot of fun. Number two, I wrote this little book on the prodigal son, finally Free, which is available for pre order now. It'll be out on January 15th through CPH. It's a little short book. It's like 70 pages. So that's my kind of length of book. But it's about the three slaveries and three freedoms of the prodigal son. If you like this podcast, you'll probably like the book. Third, most importantly, we published this text, Rome Examined, which is a simplified edition of Martin Kent examination of the Council of Trent Part 1, which studies Scripture, tradition, freedom of the will, faith, forgiveness of sins and justification. And you can download it for free, 100% free. You don't have to give your email or anything, just go Wolfmeeler code there. It's right there. You can. And download the PDF. You can find each of the articles its own page. You can buy it on Lulu if you want, but you could just. It's there. And. And a thank you, especially to the people who support, like this podcast and subscribe to the substack that helps be able to do this stuff for free. So I think that's a huge resource for the whole church. I'm just. I'm very happy to be a part of that project. So that's available. Okay, enough of this, Pastor Packer. Let's do some questions. [00:02:52] Speaker B: All right. I'm combining, like, three questions about worship music into one question. So I'm just kind of. Kind of winging it as far as how to word it. I'm gonna try to summarize your thoughts. So we had one question that was their church does a contemporary service. I think it's like once a month or something, and that's the only thing they offer that weekend. And so she's frustrated and doesn't really sing or participate and wants to know how she should deal with having a church that does. Does this contemporary service once in a while, but doesn't offer anything else. Another question related to that was, why are we offering contemporary services at all in Lutheran churches? And then the opposite question of that was, what do you. It was kind of pointed at you, what do you have against contemporary worship? Isn't it? And their question was, isn't it? At some point, all the hymns were contemporary. At some point, all the hymns were new. And so their question is, if you don't like contemporary worship, then we should just go back to just like Gregorian chant was kind of the implication at the end of that. So I'm asking, like, three things, but they're all very related. So I thought I'd just put them together for you to kind of take them at once, because the answer is going to be similar for all of them. I have a feeling that's right. [00:04:14] Speaker A: So thank you for thinking about this. How we worship is. It is almost impossible to overstate how important the way we worship is. That's a bad sentence, but that's the point. So remember how, like, Psalm 115 talks about the people who make the idols, says they don't. They don't. They have eyes, they don't see, they have lips, they don't speak, they have ears, they don't hear, they. Their feet, they don't go anywhere. That's the idols, those who make them become like them. And so do all who worship them. So that worship is that way that our hearts are shaped. And if we're worshiping a false God, it's being shaped to reflect the false God. And if we're worshiping the true God, if our hearts fear, love and trust as directed to God above all else, then. And it's shaping our hearts in that way so that the Lord, through his institution of worship is giving shape to our heart. So it's vitally important to think about it. Now, part of the problem is with the name contemporary, right? Because like, you and I are contemporaries, but I'm a lot older than you. Is that true? [00:05:26] Speaker B: I don't think so. [00:05:28] Speaker A: How old are you? I'm 48. How old are you? [00:05:31] Speaker B: I am 46. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So I mean, quite a bit older. [00:05:35] Speaker B: Whole two years. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway, it's a contemporary is a misnomer because whoever wrote that third question is right. Every hymn at some point was contemporary. It's like written right now. It's, you know, it's. But what. What is meant by that phrase contemporary worship is. It actually has nothing to do with the chronology. It ha. It has. There's probably phases of contemporary worship. There's different kind of errors of it that it went through. But there was a move in, I don't know, probably back in the 60s, coming out of the 50s 60s, there was always these kind of folk, Christian folk songs. There's always been. That's always existed, the kind of camp songs. And there was a move to bring that into the worship service of the church. And the kind of stated thing at the beginning was accessibility. So. So that these songs were more familiar, they were easier to sing, they were simpler, at least theologically simpler, maybe musically different, but whatever. So you had the question of accessibility, and that already is a problem. In other words, I do not think that the. We need to be thinking about accessibility, but we need to be thinking about accessibility without compromise. So it should be possible for people to come into the worshipping church and. And be able to make it in there somehow. But it shouldn't be that easy because it is a different world. It's a different thing that's happening. But we passed in the mid-90s the question of accessibility. And the question I think of. And this had to do with the Maranatha movement, with the rise of the big box churches, with the rise of contemporary Christian music as an industry. I mean, it's a huge industry. And a couple of other things, I think spiritual things and also theological things. The goal of contemporary music changed from accessibility in the sense that people unfamiliar with the church and the liturgy could come into church, to the accessibility of God himself. And so the goal of contemporary music became mystical. The goal became to create an experience where I feel or touch or realize or somehow recognize the immediate presence of God. And the verse that took over at this time was the psalm that says that God inhabits the praises of his people. And so the contemporary Christian worship movement again, starting from the 90s and extending today, although there's an alt Christian contemporary worship that I want to talk about now. But the goal starting back with like Maranatha music and the Jesus movement and all of this was that I know that God is presence by the worship experience. And it became a sacrament, the contemporary worship became a sacrament, but there was no mediation there. It was an immediate thing and it became mystical. So back on the old table talk radio days, we had the praise song Cruncher, which was simply an evaluation of the mystical content of the songs. And you could notice its mysticism by the use of images rather than assertions. There's all these sentence fragments, by the immediate sense of God's presence, by the emphasis on the subjective feeling of God being there and so forth, and by the very individualistic and non theological character of the songs that continues today, especially through Hillsong and all of the other popular big church music industry stuff. Now there's a. There's kind of an altar in indie contemporary Christian music which is growing up in all these kind of confessional reform circles. All the bearded Calvinists are like taking the old hymns and setting them to guitar music. That's cool. They're trying to be anti mystical, although it's difficult to do it. But I'm more sympathetic to that move. There's the, like the Church Music Writers Institute out of Irvine, which is. It's trying to capture all that energy from the, from the, the bearded Calvinists with guitars stuff and bring it into the Lutheran church. Okay. I don't think it's necessary. I'm not sure we need to be spending that much energy on the project, but fine. But the big danger of contemporary worship is not that it's contemporary. We wouldn't ever say the problem with this song is not. Is that it's not old enough, as if there's some sort of age limit on the songs that we sing. The problem is, well, what is it? And maybe to simplify the whole thing, the divine service, the liturgy brings down to earth, down to us, all five of the activities that we see happening in the Heavenly Throne room The conversation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the judgment of God, where sins are forgiven, the receiving of prayers and petitions, the worship of God, and then the sending forth of the preachers, the servants of God, so that the word goes forth. The liturgy is the place that that is sent, so that in the divine service, the word is spoken, the absolution is given, the prayers ascend, God is praised. And what contemporary worship has done is isolated that that activity of praise and exalted it above all the others. So you can even hear it in the language. People say, well, we have a praise service. Well, okay, that's fine. But that's not. The only thing that happens in the Heavenly throne room is praise. There needs to be more than that. And so the divine service, the liturgy, brings all of that to bear. So that's the big point, I think. And if we have that understanding that the liturgy is the reflection of heaven, just like in the Old Testament, God said to Moses, make a reflection of what you see. If we say, okay, here's what we see in heaven, we want to have a reflection of it in the service, and it's in the service, so that it can then be double reflected into my own heart. If we understand that, then we end up having a service centered around the Word and the sacrament that's joyfully reverent in form. And it's very Liturgy. The problem with contemporary worship, and this goes to the first two questions, is that when we start asking the question, well, what do people like? Or what are people familiar with? Or what do people want? Then we've flipped the engine of liturgical discernment. Rather than saying, how can we receive the gifts that God gives? We've started asking, how can we make ourselves appealing to members or people outside? And this is why. Okay, sorry. I keep. Like, five times I've wanted to. You're sitting there falling asleep. So sorry. You're so. But I was talking to a guy. This is very interesting. So here, I'll give you a. I'll tell you a story, and I'll get you a reflection on this. It's a pastor of another church. They have different services. You know, they've got their liturgical service or their. What they call. They don't call it liturgical, they call it traditional. You guys are traditional. Then they got their blended, and then they got their contemporary. And I made this assertion. I said, I could give you my bulletin and my sermon and my everything. And you could. Your traditional service, you could do there the exact same thing that we're doing at St. Paul. In Austin, same liturgy, same words, same service, same setting, same sermon, same everything. And you would be doing a different thing thing, because you're offering that up as one option for the Lord's people to decide do I like that or do I like that or do I like that? And when you are offering up an option, it's something totally different. The parallel is like if I go to my mom's house and she makes like the. She makes a Steak and Shake smash burger for dinner, or I go to Steak and Shake and I get the smash burger. It's the same exact burger, but it's totally different because mom didn't ask me what I wanted. She made burgers for everybody. And so whenever you add in this, what is your preference? You're completely changing the thing that's happening. Okay, so that's a lot. I'll get your thoughts on this. [00:14:01] Speaker B: Well, I actually have more questions to throw your way because I think it might be helpful for people thinking through this before we go any further with that. It does seem like just on that issue of accessibility, because that comes up a lot in this. Like, our worship style is inaccessible to the guy off the street who knows nothing about Jesus. And so I do think there is among some fellow Lutheran pastors, there's at least a good desire, like they want people to come in who don't know Jesus. And they believe that by making it more accessible in their minds, it's more accessible that this style is more accessible. Therefore, you're going to get the unbeliever off the street who doesn't know anything about Jesus is more likely to come to that service than a so called traditional service. Now, I'm not 100% convinced that's the case, but that's our concern. What would you tell a pastor who's wrestling with that? Like, hey, I get all you're saying, Pastor Wolfinger, but man, I'm just worried about that guy who's never been to church. And they come into a traditional service, they're just gonna, they're not gonna want anything to do with that and they'll leave and never come back. [00:15:08] Speaker A: I think the chief. So let me just not argue with the premise. I think there's places to argue with the premise, but let me just assume the premise and to say that, assume all the premises there and number one, that being more accessible is more likely for people to be able to come, for example, or that the people who are outside the church looking for the church are looking for something that they understand rather than looking for Something that's transcendent. So let me just assume the whole thing. The chief way to make the service accessible is by warm, friendly people sitting next to you. You could go into a service that's in a completely different language, that's played with instruments you've never heard before or whatever. And if there are kind, generous, warm, affectionate people, that is. That is the thing. You could go into a service that's just like everything else that you're used to. And if the people around you are cold and indifferent, then there's nothing you don't want. You don't want to go back. So I think that the accessibility question is chiefly a question of hospitality and that we need to be praying for people who have the gift of hospitality. We need to be encouraging the gift of hospitality and warmth. And for every Christian to recognize this, and it's hard for us to remember if we've been Christian for a long time or if we've been in our church for a long time, is that going to a new church is traumatic. I try to explain this to our ushers and et cetera, that whenever someone's visiting, it's because something. Something huge has happened in their lives. Maybe they just moved from Austin to Collinsville, and then now, you know, they're, they're. They're used to coming to St. Paul and now they're going to go to Good Shepherd. But even still, they've. Their whole life is uprooted. You know, their neighbors and friends are gone. That's already traumatic. The least traumatic is when someone comes to Austin to go to the Formula one race, and they come and, and they. They're like, oh, I love how Pastor Packer answers the questions. I'm going to go to church over there at St. Paul or whatever. That's like the least traumatic. But if someone's coming from a different church, well, why are they leaving their church? If someone's coming from a different denomination, what happened that they started to question the doctrine of their church? If someone hasn't been to church and they're starting to come to church, whatever it is, there was weeks and weeks of thinking about it, of wondering if they should. Of maybe even driving to the parking lot and not coming in, of looking all this stuff on the. Of wondering why things seem different and their whole world seems upside down. All of that's happened before they've come to church. And so to recognize that when someone comes into church, they're bringing all those questions and wondering and everything with them, and to have a warmth there to welcome them and to say, this is where you should be. We're so happy. What's your name? This is my name. Tell me your story. That that is the thing that matters. And you could have the highest of liturgy or the rockiest of praise bands. That's, I think, the key question. So putting that question of hospitality onto the liturgy is the wrong place to put it. That would be my advice. Now, do we recognize that the liturgy is a foreign language, that it's strange? We should recognize that and we should provide ways for people to start to get access to that. So, for example, we publish a visitor bulletin, which has all the hymns and all the words and all the everything, so they don't need to worry about navigating the hymnal, because who knows what page you're on and everything. Great stuff like that. This is great. But for people to know that, hey, the thing that's happening here in this place is different than the thing that happens in my living room or in my workplace or in my everywhere else. That's important. That's an important part of our confession as Christians, that the liturgy is. Reminding us that we're not of this world, that we're strangers here. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Going back to the first question, so what do you do if you are in an area where your church has once a month or every other week or something, where you're going between traditional and contemporary, and you don't like the contemporary, but you're trying to go because it's your church? What do you. What advice do you give to her or others like her who are struggling with that kind of thing? What should she do? How should she handle that? She said she's often not seen. She feels guilty about it, but she struggles with what the songs are saying. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So you never, ever, ever should participate in anything that troubles your conscience. And anyone who would ask you to do that would be. Is kind of a spiritual tyranny. So you never confess anything you don't believe, Never, never pray something that you don't fully believe in. And if there's a song that you don't, even if you're not sure about, even if it's a hymn, then. Then silence. You know, that's so. So that's the first thing. It would be good to talk to your pastor about this and to let him know your own spiritual concerns. Oftentimes, though, this conversation, well, most of the time, that conversation doesn't go well because the pastor has been convinced. I have a conspiracy theory about this, that the big church, big eva Big evangelicalism. One of the ways that they've grown is by convincing small churches that the way to become a big church is to do all this contemporary worship stuff. And here's where the conspiracy is. It's very hard to do this kind of contemporary worship well, especially if you're small and especially if you're on a budget. I mean, you got to have, like, a professional sound guy, a professional lights person. You got to have musicians that are really well trained and practicing. And so. So you have these praise bands, and they're all professional or semi professional, and they're practicing all the time. And they've got a lot of resources that help them pull off this thing, including the lights. I mean, it's an amazing thing how much, like, stage lighting will affect whatever. Just wait till next week's episodes when Pastor Packer's lights arrive. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Be amazing. [00:21:46] Speaker A: And what happens is, if you don't have all of the resources to do it, it's uncomfortable. So here's what happens is you have the small churches trying to act like the big churches to grow. And the pastors of the small churches do two things. Number one, they convince their congregation that the better the worship experience is, the more the Spirit is present. Therefore, we need to change. And so they've already convinced them that whatever they were doing was not helpful before they got to change. And then. So they've actually already pointed to the big evangelical church as the place where the Holy Spirit's working. And then they go and they try to implement it, and they do it poorly so that the people leave and go to other churches. I've seen this happen. Happened half a dozen times, like, watched it happen right in front of my eyes. The pastor started to shift the church from something sort of liturgical. There's never deep conviction, but liturgical ish to contemporary. And half the people left to go to the Calvary Chapel down the street, where they were doing it better. After all, why shouldn't they? The pastor already convinced them that that was where the Holy Spirit was working. And so the big evangelical church. That's my conspiracy theory, that they did it on purpose. But it's not a conspiracy theory that this is what's happening, because the liturgy beautifully, beautifully adapts to the space. So the liturgy can be broad and ornate. If there's a big space and it can be small and humble, it goes all the way down to the bedside of the dying people. The same liturgy expands to fill cathedrals. It can be appropriate for the situation, but you can't bring a praise band into a deathbed. I mean, you know, put the lighting on in the hospice room and everything. There's a certain kind of size at which the thing works and budget at which the thing works. And so we. I don't know. That's a. There's some trick that goes on there as well. [00:23:50] Speaker B: I heard a great presentation yesterday. I can't remember his last name. Well, I kind of know it, but I don't want to butcher it. But he just wrote the new book for CPH about kind of these portraits of various people from LCMS history, musicians and cantors and stuff. And he's talking about Walther's advice to congregations about singing lively, which is one thing I think sometimes makes the traditional side look like if everything's sung like a funeral dirge, then all of a sudden people don't want to sing it. But if you sing it the way it's meant to be sung, it's really beautiful and lively and great. And then maybe one more self critique. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. I do think there is one area where maybe we failed as Lutherans, especially traditional Lutherans, is not having music that our people can listen to outside of worship that isn't, like, meant to be sung in church. Like, I learned about Walther's four hymns that he wrote on this trip that didn't seem like they were meant to be sung in church at all. Um, even the one we have in our hymnal on Easter doesn't seem like he intended it to be sung in church necessarily. But. And so that some of this music does fill a void in our people's, like, devotional lives or personal lives. They want something to listen to that's not. That's not vulgar, not. Not awful. And. And some of it's. Not all of it's bad. Like, I wouldn't sing it in church. [00:25:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:08] Speaker B: For various reasons. But it's not. It's not bad to listen to. And some of it's quite theologically sound. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Yep. [00:25:15] Speaker B: And yet again, I wouldn't want in church, but we have, like, Flame, But I can't think of anyone outside of that. And that, you know, fits a particular. Those. Those who like rap. And he has a lot of great stuff, but we don't have as much for some of the other genres maybe, as we should, that would maybe help combat some of this. Like, we don't have that in their daily lives. We're like, no, just go listen to hymns all day. And like, nobody does that. Well, there's a few people I know that. Do that, but most people don't do that, you know, so trying to find those kind of things for people can be difficult. And it seems like we would have spent some money on that, training people on that, that maybe we could have avoided some of this. That's just. It's been my thought for a while. I'm interested to hear what you think. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. We. We would always. The Prison Cruncher had a second category which was good for the car on the way to church. Yeah, there's just some music that's great. That's great. It's just not for church. But here's the. Like, you know, there's camp songs, and those camp songs are great to sit with a guitar and sing when you're around the fire. But here's the problem is that when you try to bring the camp songs into church, then you almost force people to bring the church songs to camp. That's what we do every year with the catechism retreat. We sing all these hymns and have matins and vespers by the campfire, which is cool, I guess, but you almost have to, even, because it would be better to sing the praise songs there. But when you start to mix up the places, then everything gets all mixy. But you're right, I think a place for good Christian music that's not congregational. It's a performance. It's like a concert. It's great. We should do more of that. Carrie made me this. You remember the old mixtapes? Remember when we used to have tapes? [00:27:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:06] Speaker A: And she. And so we had all these. She had all these kind of contemporary Christian music songs. And she made a tape for me, a mixtape. I took it. It's like, all I list is a soundtrack for three months in Fiji and for six weeks walking around Israel. And I reproduced that playlist in Spotify. It's all these old, like, early 90s kind of Christian grunge bands I love. It's great. I mean, we need that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's there. But again, it's not. The problem is when you try to import it into worship, then this becomes a big deal. [00:27:42] Speaker B: All right, the next question, actually, again, it's a couple different people have this question. I think at least two or three just recently. I think there were some others, too, that I didn't move over. But this one's on the historical Lutheran view on communion assistance. Basically. I know you've heard this question before. Who can assist in distributing Holy Communion to the congregation? So, as you know, Many churches make use of elders in the church to help. There's some who say only pastors can do it. And then, of course, we have some churches that don't just have elders, but sometimes they have other laypeople, including women, assistant distribution. So they said it's kind of confusing to them. So any insights you have would be helpful. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the best way to. So when we. Our theological approach wants to be to. Toward the center of our confession, not towards the edge. Here's the analogy. So I remember when I used to do the old youth group days and guys would say, or girls, I suppose, too, how far is too far? If we're, you know, kissing our girlfriend, et cetera. The question is, that's. That's the wrong question. You don't want to be going towards the edge and trying to figure out, how far can I go before I go over the edge? The answer is, how can I. How can I be chaste? How can I pursue purity? One of the. I think the reason why we're in trouble in the church a lot of times is, especially the Lutheran Church seems to do like, how far can I go to the edge before I fall off? And that's the case here. The direction we want to be moving in our theology and practice is towards the sinner. And the sinner is Augsburg 14, which says, we don't permit a person to preach or teach or administer the sacraments unless they've been rightly called. And that is a way of saying that the public preaching and the public distribution of the sacraments belongs to the office. Now, if there are, like, practical needs, like, you got one pastor and a bunch of people, and it'd be helpful to have other people helping, then you have the pastor enlisting people to help, but they belong still to the office in that way. Like, there's. I don't know what's a good example. Like, we have a. You have a pastor and he calls up a. The pastors in the area call a chaplain together and say, hey, can you help serve our guys who are in the military? We need your help over here. Or, I don't know, just like there's an assistance to the office, but it belongs to the office. So I think it's just 100% fine to say, hey, we need help in this work. So we're going to enlist folks to help. But it's all under the office. I think especially in the public distribution of the sacraments, the pastor needs to be the person who's admitting. So this is really clear that the pastor is the one who's going first and he's the one as the steward of the mystery of God, as St. Paul says, saying, you're in, you're out, etc. So that decision is not on one of the assistants, that's on the pastor. And then say there's someone coming behind with the Lord's blood or someone helping to collect whatever. This is all under the direct supervision and care of the pastor. I think because it's a public distribution of the sacraments, it only is introducing confusion to have women or girls helping in this way, serving in any way at the altar. I think that only brings confusion and there's no real good reason for it. There's only bad reasons for it. So I think for that reason we want to avoid that confusion. But that's my best wisdom on that question. [00:31:34] Speaker B: No, that's how I've always approached it too. I think if you're going to have people helping, then like you said, it's an extension of the office at that point. And I know some guys get really upset, like, oh, only the pastor should do it. But it's not like, like you said, if they're not leading, they're not making the ultimate decision. They're an extra set of hands. [00:31:54] Speaker A: Right? [00:31:55] Speaker B: They're not. They're not deciding who communes and who doesn't commune. They're not making that call. That's the pastor. He's the steward of that. And so that's his job. So they're following his lead. So when it's done in that way, I don't have any issues with it. And like you said, I do think because of the confusion, for various other reasons, that if you have people other than men assisting, it does create a whole lot of questions for the people, like, what's going on? Why are they up there? What are they doing? And there doesn't seem to be any helpful about it. Besides, you're introducing something that's very confusing. So I don't think we should go there at all. But I don't think having an extra set of hands, like at both of our churches, we can meet a lot of people and we have two pastors up there. But we also have, right now, because of the time of year it is, we usually have a field worker as well who's up there with us, and then usually at least one elder, right, to assist with things. So we usually have two unordained guys up there assisting with the two pastors. But the two pastors are the ones who are in charge of admitting people to the table. And the others are following our lead on that. So I don't see any issues with that Biblically or confessionally or anything else. All right, let's go to the next one. This is on icons and veneration. Why do we say that veneration of icons is bad when we still bow before the crucifix in the service? Does not. Does that not still fall under the second commandment to make graven images and bow before them? Thank you for all that you do for the church. Based on the numbering of the commandments, I'm thinking they may not. Not sure, but they may not be Lutheran asking this, but it is a. I think it's a fair question. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts? We say. [00:33:45] Speaker B: We say don't venerate icons. I think there's a huge difference between, you know, making a slight bow. Like I was at the pastors circuit meeting yesterday at St Paul Hamill, right. And they process, processed in with a cross and people bowed towards it. But I don't think they're in that case. Like, they're not worshiping the cross, right. They are acknowledging that the cross is a symbol of where Jesus died for us. Just like when people, you know, bow when they come up to receive communion. Or maybe a better example is when they are in the sanctuary and they come up and there's no communion elements on the altar, they still bow. Many of them bow or reverence the altar. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Why? [00:34:28] Speaker B: Because it's the place where Jesus comes to us with his body and blood. So they're not worshiping the altar. They're acknowledging, hey, this is the place where Jesus feeds us. And so I think it's very different than bowing before an image and like worshiping at the image or venerating in quotes, whatever you want to call it, doing that in front of an image or even in front of a crucifix, for that matter. Like where you're. You're directing your prayers or things to that or through that. Whereas I think it's a sign of respect and honor. Just like, I mean, probably the best example we have culturally, right, Is like saluting the flag, Right. People will salute, salute the flag, or put their hand over their hearts. Why? As a sign of respect. Not for the. Merely for the flag, but for what the flag stands for and what it's supposed to be pointing you to. So that's how I've kind of always understood it. It's never really bothered my conscience or anything like that. But I do know it is a question I hear come up. They're not the first person I've heard ask this. So what is here? [00:35:30] Speaker A: I don't know this. I'm just thinking about it while you're talking. So there is a theology of the icon in the East. So the icon is in the East. [00:35:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's sacramentally right. [00:35:40] Speaker A: So the Eastern Orthodoxy, or Eastern Christianity understands the icon as this window to heaven, and it does have a real sacramental sense in Eastern theology. I don't think there's a parallel to the statues of the West. In other words, I don't think there's an equivalent or a parallel theology that Western Christianity has of images or of statues that the east does not have, which is interesting. So that means, I suppose if there was like, from Roman Catholicism, like an iconic theology of the crucifixion, then we would have to talk about, like, the veneration of crucifixes. But there's just no. As far as I can tell, there's no parallel or no equivalent. So the reason why it comes up in the question of veneration, comes up with images and not statues, is because there's no, there's not an argument there. Part of the interesting distinction between east and west is this question of, like, images, flat or three dimensional. And part of it is the history of the numbering of the creeds. And so in the east, they have the second commandment, you shall not make any graven images. So they're making ungraven images instead of graven images. And so you go to Greece and the only statues you see in Greece are the pagan ones. All the Christians only have icons. It's all flat. And then when you go to Rome, you have all these Christian statues everywhere. It's just. It's an amazing thing how it mattered for the culture and worked itself out that way. But I think that's the reason why, to answer the question like, the reason why we have to talk about veneration of icons is because the Orthodox theology of the icon is a means of grace. And we have to say that while an image, either a statue or an icon that's drawn or an image that's painted can instruct, it can bring to our minds the promises of God and the text of the Scripture, and it can be useful for teaching it is not a means of grace. And this is why I think we have to be particularly careful around the icon. Just because of the Orthodox teaching related to it. [00:37:55] Speaker B: No, I think that's really helpful. [00:37:58] Speaker A: It makes me uncomfortable, by the way, this is a growing discomfort. I don't know if I should confess it out loud, but the bowing to the processional cross is for whatever reason seeming more and more strange to me. Like I always will reverence the altar, the Lord present or not. This is the place where the real body and blood comes. So it's a confession of that, that there's a locatedness to the gifts and that's the place. That's the place where the Lord gives gifts. But the processional cross is. I don't know why, I'm not 100% sure why that discomfort is there, but this kind of question scrapes at it a little bit. [00:38:37] Speaker B: Do you think it's because maybe some, maybe you feel like some in our circles are taking it too far? Maybe like with their views on that, maybe they're, they're toeing the line there? [00:38:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's we, everything that we do in the service should emphasize word and sacrament. And sometimes it gets a little bit too. The attention gets drawn to the, to the, to the ornaments. It's fine to have ornaments there, but our attention. It's my. It's maybe the same discomfort I have with the ashes on Ash Wednesday. I never have liked. Well, and I have a growing with the ashes. I just, it's like, I mean, we do it all right, fine. But people are like, the ashes seem like to impact them. They're more meaningful than the very body and blood of Christ, which is there. It's like, hey, when your sacramentals start surpassing your sacraments, then this is, this is, you know, this is trouble. [00:39:44] Speaker B: All right, let's go into vocation of friends and AI chatbots. I think so there seems to. Oh, go ahead. [00:39:52] Speaker A: No, no, you go. [00:39:53] Speaker B: I'm just saying I think there's a. We've seen it all over the place. There's this increasing rise even outside the so called AI psychosis where people are driven a little crazy by these things, but people using AI chatbots in place of human beings for friendship, companionship. [00:40:14] Speaker A: All. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Those kinds of things. And part of it seems like to me there's kind of like this narcissist thing going on, right? Like narcissist is forever stuck there because he couldn't help staring at himself, right in, in the pond, seeing his own reflection. And AI, because it's programmed to please you, basically is never going to really disagree with you. This is why it gives people advice about suicide, Right. If you ask it questions, it wants to make you happy. And if that's what makes you happy, it'll tell you these things. And so it seems like there's an increasing use of it, even just from that perspective. Like, I can have a friend where it's not messy, it's not quote unquote, toxic, which is a term I increasingly dislike, the way it's used for people. You know, anybody that's hard to love is toxic nowadays, you know, which is everybody, I think. But anyway, so there's a whole lot bound up with that, but it does seem to be increasing on the rise that people are seeking companionship, friendship. I think I just saw something recently about someone marrying an AI chatbot. I mean, this just seems to be on the rise. So what are your thoughts on the friendship and the use of AI chatbots to kind of replace friends? [00:41:28] Speaker A: So I have a theory that is going to be amplified by this. So my previous theory is that the rise of the therapeutic culture was a result of the decline of friendship. And the. And that is now amplified even further by the COVID pressure to move online and then by the resources that AI seems to provide to people. Like, there's a. Like you said, there's a. There's what looks like a real conversation that can happen, and I can tell the person I'm talking to exactly what I want to hear, so then they can tell me that thing. And so the chatbot is, I think, amplifying the deep lack of friendship that that exists now. Our professor, Dr. Marquardt. Did you have Dr. Marquardt? [00:42:30] Speaker B: I did not. He was not there by the time I got there. [00:42:33] Speaker A: My professor, Dr. Marquardt, who, boy, one of the joys of the resurrection will be for all of you to meet him. Just an absolute gem, gem of a theologian, Just an amazing man. And he always used to teach that the heresies were the unpaid debts of the Church. In other words, when you see a heresy, you should look past it to see what true doctrine the church has failed to teach. So when you see pentecostalism, you should look past it and see that the church has failed to preach the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. When you see, for example, higher criticism, you should look past it and see that the church has failed to recognize, like, the personality of Moses and the apostles and prophets or whatever. When we see this AI Chatbot heresy, it should be a heresy. It's a heresy about conversation. It's a heresy about the word of God. It's a heresy about humanity. But behind it is a deep failure to promote friendship. Dr. Schultz, our friend Greg Schultz says that, like behind a lot of the modern heresies in the way that we worship is a failure of the church to teach the world to lament. So in other words, behind all these heresies, of these failures, and I think the failure, the failure that's behind the AI is first, a failure of thankfulness, always failure of thankfulness, Romans 1. And secondly, a failure of friendship. Because as we've talked about vocation in the church, we've talked about the vocation of parent and child, of husband and wife, of preacher and hearer, of ruler and subject, of boss and worker. But I don't think that we've talked about the vocation of friend. At least I haven't heard it. It's not part of our conversation, even though it's so important in the scriptures. And Jesus himself says, I'm your friend, I no longer call you my servants, but my friends. And this vocation of friendship is a difficult vocation, a hard vocation. It's not a head body vocation in the sense of it's a colleague vocation. And it has much more free will involved than all of our other vocations. Like almost every vocation is given to you. Like I was given my parents, I was given my brothers, I was given my children by God, Even the gift of marriage, even though Carrie and I kind of sorted things out a little bit on our own, we were given to one another. But the vocation of friend is that which, it highlights that free will. I've. I actually choose to have this person as my friend. And I have to cultivate that friendship in a profound way. So it's hard and we just, we tend to neglect it. And I think that we need to highlight that calling in our preaching and our teaching. In fact, one of the. There's this thing about this is one of the differences between the Lutherans and the Evangelicals is that there's an assumption in every culture, subculture, even about what your most important vocational relationships are. And the Lutheran Church just assumes that people's most important vocational relationships are their family. The evangelical church assumes that the most important vocational relationships people have is their friends and their co workers. Which is why like people grow up going to the Lutheran Church and then in college and when they're single, they go to the evangelical church and when they get married and have kids, they come back to the Lutheran Church, at least we hope, because they're in that context where their assumed primary vocation is just in the air. And that's a lack that we have. We need to assume that everybody is a friend, that you have friends, that you are a friend to other people, that other people are a friend to you, and that we're cultivating, that we're looking for that, that we want that and that we're serving in that way. And to recognize when someone is going to the chatbot and saying, hey, you know, what do you think about my hairstyle? And what do you think? Can you talk to me about this book that I'm reading? This is a desperate confession of the failure of being and having friends. And so this needs to be highlighted as part of our Christian life, the life of the sanctification, the, let's say it this way, the stewardship of our friends. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Two recommendations on that that I found really helpful is CS Lewis's the Four Loves has just magnificent stuff on all the four loves. But especially I think there's some great stuff on friendship. But then also, have you ever read Spiritual Friendship by He was an English Cistercian monk. I don't know how to pronounce his name. Allred A, E L, R, E, D of he's some from some French town I can't pronounce. I'm not going to try to butcher it here online. But he wrote Spiritual Friendship, which is a great little book about like him reflecting on what does it mean to be a Christian, to be a friend. It just, it's really beautiful the way he lays it out. And I think both of those books are extremely helpful on this topic because I think we've just forgotten so many things that used to be just normal that I think we have to probably study more on this than we probably need to. Not that I think you need to read those books before you go out and start being friendly and making friends. Don't get me wrong there. You should just go do that, as Pastor Wolfmuller said. But I do think to step back and kind of think about what does it really mean to be a friend, because we have lost a lot of that and we have to relearn some things that we have forgotten that have been lost. And that's a great place to start both of those books. So I highly commend both of them. [00:48:26] Speaker A: We have to have when we say our prayers, we have to. We pray. Here's I'm praying for my family and then we have to have a list there. I'm praying for my friends. Yeah, these are my friends. You are my this is one of the most precious thing that Jesus says, you are my friends. And. And to have that and cultivate and to realize Also, I mean, it's part of this natural kind of human growth. You go from. Even as a child, you have your family, and then you have your friends, and that's a totally different thing for your conscience. And then one of those friends becomes your spouse, and now you're back into the family. And it's kind of. And the family is a better context for the conscience. But friendship is so vitally important. And it's a little bit awkward, and I think it's getting harder now, especially with so much online stuff. People are getting very awkward in just dealing with people. And it's already strange because I feel the pressure from my friends, but I don't feel the pressure that I give to my friends and all this peer pressure and all these things that are happening there. So I really do think we need to lean into it. And I'm glad you recommended that book, because my chatbot recommended it to me this morning. So. [00:49:40] Speaker B: Dear Chatbot, how can I make friends? [00:49:44] Speaker A: That's. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Actually, people are gonna be looking that up today. You know that, right? And then the chatbot's gonna say, I'm your friend. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Why do you need friends? You got me. [00:49:54] Speaker B: You have me. [00:49:57] Speaker A: All right. That's my imitation of the chatbot sounds. [00:50:03] Speaker B: We'll have to fact check that with Elon Musk. All right. From Revelation 19:9, a question on the wedding supper of the lamb. What will be on the menu? Since we already partake of his body and blood, I don't think that will be set before us anymore. I'm wondering if it would be the fruit from the tree of everlasting life. So what do you think? What's on the menu? The marriage supper of the lamb. [00:50:29] Speaker A: That's such a marvelous question. I don't know how I never, ever thought of that. So I'm trying to think of this passage in Isaiah where it says. Is that Isaiah 25, where it says, I will make on that mountain a feast? [00:50:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Where death is swallowed up. Yeah. [00:50:46] Speaker A: It's the feet. It seems like the feast has fat and wine. It's like. It's like very. It's like Wagyu and. And Sauvignon Blanc. That's how I was reading it. I'm looking for it now, but it is. But to. The question almost answers itself. Let's see. Isaiah 25. 6. And in this mountain, the Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces. That's how new King James says. Choice pieces. What is that supposed to mean? I have a footnote. Where's Your footnote. Fat things. That's the literal. I'll make a feast of fat things. A feast of wine on the lees. Wine matured on the sediment. That's the red wine. A fat things full of marrow. So chuck steak, you know, t bone. The bone is in the meat. Well, refined wine of the lees. That's the menu. I think that's the menu. But this is the point, he says, and he will destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all people, the veil that spread over all the nations. He will swallow up death forever. So what Jesus is eating at the feast is death. Give me another piece of death. Almost finished it. I'm stuffed. The Lord will wipe away tears from all faces, the rebuke of his people. Now to the serious point, though, of the tree of Life, because that's how Revelation 21 has it. There's the new Jerusalem with the river in it, and it's a street. It's this garden city. And lining the river is the tree of life that God planted in the garden, now expanded into a forest, and the fruit is always on it. So that we're back to the garden now and eating that fruit which sustains us forever and ever in the Lord's. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Presence, which would be Jesus body and blood. Right. I mean, go back, he said, I don't think we would need anymore. But the Tree of Life is the cross. Right. I would actually argue the cross is also the knowledge of good and evil too. Like it's both trees fulfilled in Christ. So I think a lot of the imagery is now. I do think there's going to be actual food too. But specifically the wedding supper of the Lamb, though, right? We say now he is host and he is feast. Right. He's both. And I actually don't think it'll be different there for that now. I do think there'll be other food and stuff. I had a pastor friend that always used to joke that the new Earth would have Cheetos and Diet Pepsi because that's what he ate and drank all the time. We remember because he was at camp with us. [00:53:37] Speaker A: That might be heretical. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I wouldn't want either of those. [00:53:43] Speaker A: But you got that menu so wrong. [00:53:45] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, you know, he's just saying there's gonna be a lot of great stuff to. To eat. We are gonna be in physical body. So I do expect there'll be food, like amazing food and excellent things. But as far as that specific question, I do think we're receiving now in part what we're going to receive in full. Right. And so I don't think receiving Christ's body and blood is out of the question even for eternity. [00:54:10] Speaker A: If you wanted a picture of that, I have to think about it, too. But it would be the very first supper, where Jesus is feeding the disciples his true body and blood while he's also there. [00:54:20] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [00:54:21] Speaker A: And so his body and blood is there in such a way that he is. He's there. Well, in that time, he's there in two ways. And so maybe that's. This is his. The way he's present also in the meal, in the new heaven and new earth. But it's great. So the answer is, I suppose we don't know, but it'll be more wonderful than you can possibly imagine. [00:54:43] Speaker B: That's right. We're guessing. But it's gonna be pretty awesome either way. [00:54:46] Speaker A: It's great to think about these things, I think, meditating on the new heaven and the new earth. I mean, sometimes it takes us into strange places, like, how can this possibly be? It's so hard for us to imagine. But when we trust that it will be good, when we know that whatever it is, it is good, then I think it takes us in some great directions. [00:55:08] Speaker B: All right, next one. This one has a long introduction that I'm going to skip because it would take me five or six minutes, I think, to read through it. So I'm going to skip that and get to some of the questions in particular one, because some of the other questions we've answered just recently and so. And maybe a different one we'll come back to another time. But he wants to know your attitude towards church ties and what the scripture tells us about it. Now, he mentions, I think the example he's given here is because he is not from. He is from outside the United States. So he mentions that his church does not have a tithe. But it seems like what he means by this is there's not a required percentage of your giving to be a member. Whereas he mentioned some other churches that do require a certain amount per member. So I think that's. From what I'm reading from, the entire thing that seems to be the context here is that there are churches that require your members to give a certain percentage to be a member, and then there's others that leave it up to your individual conscience or whatnot. So I think that's the context for his question about the church tithe. [00:56:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that. So in the Old Testament, you had the tithe. You really had the double tithe and 10% of your income went to support the temple life and 10% went to support the political life. And I think, wow, I mean can you imagine if we just had a 10% flat tax for the, I mean that. How great. Anyway, anyway, in the New Testament it's different specifically because we don't live in a civil ecclesiastical estate. So offerings to the church are expected of Christians. And here's the basic idea that the Christians support, everybody supports what they love. The Christian loves the gospel, so the Christian loves the preaching of the gospel. So the Christian is going to be giving, if possible to support the church. Now sometimes it's not possible. Sometimes you don't have enough money or any money or whatever and then the church needs to support you, which is great. Sometimes it's kind of a wash. Sometimes Christians are supporting the church. But. There's no legal requirement in the New Testament that requires a certain percentage to be given. Now I think that the 10% is a good goal and for the Christian to think, well what am I working towards? As I am trying to be a good steward of the gifts that God gives, I want to work towards 10% offering. And I put together this little like baby steps towards that so that it's cheerful. Ten is what I call, I should tell you these baby steps, I haven't put it anywhere else. I just, I wrote it down and then, and then I'm trying to figure out how to do with it. So it's. So here's the four small steps I have for giving, for stewardship of our wealth, of our money church. So step one is start regular giving to the church at any level, like a dollar a month, whatever, just start and make it regular. A quarter a week, a dollar a week. So if you're not in the habit of supporting the church or giving to the church, just start. Then step two is after a few months, three months at that level, whatever, convert what you are giving into a percentage of your income and just use your take home income just like to keep it simple. So the money that you're living on, figure out what percentage of the money that you're living on. So say you're living on $20 a week and you're giving a dollar to the church. So that's 5%. So all right, so 5% I'm giving to the church and then just so, so you have that and try to stick with that percentage. So if you go up to $30 a week, then you're going to give $1.50 a week, just try to stay with the 5%. And then whenever you have a change in your circumstances or whenever you're doing your budget every year, think, I want to get to 10, I want to slowly get to 10. So can I crank it up a half percent, 1% if things, or a half a percent or whatever? So I'm going to go from giving 5% to 5.5% next year. So instead of giving $1.50, I'm going to give $1.57 or whatever. Or, you know the math and you stick. And every time things change, say, can I bump up a half percent? And think, you know, in 20 years I'll get to 10% and that'll be great if that. And here's the critical kind of Baby Step, 3, 4, is that when I'm thinking about, can I give a little bit more? If there's resistance, I gotta say, where is the resistance? And there could be three places that I see resistance to this. Number one is the resistance of my bank account. I don't have the money. And if that's the case, then don't worry about it. Just stay where you are or go less if you can't. In other words, if you don't have the money, don't give the money. If it's a money problem, don't do it. The second place of resistance is, well, I don't trust the church to be a good steward of this offering. So the resistance is coming from my distrust of the church and its leadership. And if that's the case, here's my advice to you. You have to do two things. You have to, number one, increase your giving. But just give it to something different, like give it to Lutherans for life, or give it to the seminary, or give it to another ministry that's doing it. And second, go and tell the church about it. Talk to the pastor, the church leadership, and say, hey, you know, I was thinking about giving a little bit more this year, but I was. I'm just. I realized I'm uncomfortable with the way the church is spending money. The way things are going in the church, you have to let the congregation know that. Because if there's no accountability in that way, that's helpful. So to let the meditation expose your discontent with the way things are going at church. The third place of resistance is your own heart. And it's simply because we are all, naturally, the old Adam is a hoarder. We want to hold on to stuff. We love money. And this is where Jesus says, you can't serve God in Mammon. So I'm like, I don't want to give it away. I want to spend it on myself or keep it for myself or whatever. And that's a call for repentance. Lord, help me to trust in you to support the gospel, give me repentance, etc, etc. So that question is, can I up it a little bit? Helps expose those things, right? Helps us think through those things. And then the fourth step is when we get to 10%. Here's we're given 10% and maybe we want to increase it even more. But that over 10% say, hey, can I support things outside the congregation, different places, etc. In other words, I think we're working towards a goal of 10% for our local congregation. And then if the Lord gives us a big abundance of extra stuff, then we're supporting different things. Maybe my church needs something for a special project or whatever, but those are my cheerful 10 baby steps to working towards that generosity and supporting the preaching of the Gospel in the local church. What do you think about that? [01:02:22] Speaker B: I think those are helpful. I was trying to think like there's people you mentioned, like there's people that struggle to get to 10%, but we also have people, the last step you mentioned who maybe 10%, they don't even notice it, right? Like they're making enough money that 10% is not enough. And I always go to 2 Corinthians 8, 9, where Paul's discussing this and says, essentially, I mean, my paraphrase of Paul there is giving is sacrificial. And so you should feel it a little bit, like you should notice. And so I think one of the questions, maybe that could be added into some of those steps is, do I actually notice? Does this hurt a little bit? Because if it doesn't hurt a little bit, like Paul calls us to sacrificial giving, if it doesn't hurt a little bit, it seems like maybe, maybe, maybe we're not really, we think we're being generous, but we're not. You know, it seems like there, there is an element and I, I think I can be pushed too far. Right where you're overly agonizing over does, is this sacrificial or not? But I do think there is. Paul makes it very clear that there's an element of, like, this hurts a little bit. Like, it cost me something, it's going to keep me from buying some other things because I'm doing this right, not food or shelter or clothing, the things that you need, but it may keep you from some nicer conveniences. And then on the other end, there's people who, they could give away 30, 40, 50, 60, 70% in charitable giving and still have plenty to live on, you know, which is why it's dangerous. Like you said, like, there's not a biblical requirement for a certain percentage. Part of that, too is because some people could actually give much more and still be fine, be very well off and be very comfortable. And, you know, I think there are. We definitely have those Christians that do that. You know, various churches, they do a lot more than people think. They're not out there boasting about it. You know, they're not, you know, they're not Oprah giving away stuff on TV all the time like she used to do. And, you know, you get a car, you get a car kind of thing. They're just quietly, humbly serving with what God's blessed them with and doing a lot of great good and that the church would suffer greatly if they stopped. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Yep. I think when Paul says in that same context that you're quoting God loves a cheerful giver, it is a. I think this is a key thing, too. Am I happy about this? Even if it hurts? Am I happy about it because I. Because the devil will get in. If I'm giving. If I'm. If I'm giving 0.001% of my income, if I'm giving 2 cents to the church every year, but I'm grumpy about it, that becomes a door for the devil to attack. And so we always have to check our own. What? I think we have to check our cheerfulness on this, because it's not. People will sit there and say, oh, the church is always talking about money. And always. Well, the church maybe never even talks about it, except for, like, this podcast, which is the only time I've ever even talked about this stuff. And now the devil comes in there and like, look, they all. They're all after the money. This is the Greek. No. So if I'm not cheerful about it, I think this is the case. If I'm not cheerful about it, don't do it. But check. Why. Why are you not cheerful? Is it. I don't know, is it your heart? If you don't like, this is. And this is my point. If you don't trust the church, then just give it to somebody else. Fine, like. And that'll be a test. You're like, ah, I don't like the church. They're always asking about money. Well, what is your. What is your. What Is the. Who are the people that you think are doing the best good work? Just give it to them. You're like, well, I don't like them either now, because now I might have to. And what you really realize is it's not that I don't like the church, it's that I just. I like my money more than anything else. So that helps you check that, like, where is the point of resistance? And I think that's really also very helpful. [01:06:15] Speaker B: There's a great little book, I don't know if you've read it, the Treasure Principle by Randy Alcorn. It's really short. Most people can probably read it like an hour or two tops. But he has various principles on giving that I find very helpful because I think it's a good way to think through. And I don't have them here in front of me, all the various principles, but it's basically asking yourself questions about your relationship to your money, which is getting to the heart of what you're getting at. Right. Like, the reason we're not cheerful is because usually because of an unhealthy attachment to our money and stuff. The reason we don't want to give more when we could give more, not when we can't, but when we could give more and we know we could give more and it bothers us. It's usually some kind of idolatry. Right. I mean, the real issue is our heart's attachment to the stuff, the money and stuff. That's really what's behind all of that. And I always found his book as a helpful, helpful tool in kind of thinking through some of those things. [01:07:09] Speaker A: Great. That's great. [01:07:12] Speaker B: All right, I think we're on the last one for today. This is from a PCA Presbyterian. So we are in question and answer fellowship. [01:07:25] Speaker A: Right. Wow. Very ecumenical. [01:07:28] Speaker B: All right. Yeah, so ecumenical. All right. He has a friend who does home church, which I assume is a small group meeting in homes. I have found, though, before I get to the question, when people say home church, they often mean them and their family. And usually there's very, very little actual church in my experience. I realize there's maybe some people that actually do something for so called home church, which is really just devotions at home, but, you know, and not really church. But I have often found they don't actually do anything. Anyway, I will continue. He regularly says denominations are bad, that they're not biblical. So what are your thoughts? So are denominations biblical? Are they just evil? It's a loaded question. [01:08:14] Speaker A: So. So they are. And I Think maybe the right question is, are denominations God's will? Can we ask that? Because does Jesus want the church to be one? Yes, he does. But why? He wants the church to be united in the Word. And if there are divisions in the teaching and the doctrine, then the Lord Jesus wants those divisions to be manifest by division. So he says, for example, Paul says, watch those who cause divisions and separate from them. In First Corinthians, he says that there must be errors so that those who are right can be proven. So there will be different confessions. There will be different names for those confessions, and that is according to God's will. It would not be God's will for us to say all these different teachings don't matter. Now, the fact of denominations is kind of a codification of theological fights and false doctrine. And is false doctrine God's will? Well, no, but it just. It is. And apparently the Lord Jesus is, for now, content to let them go on. So we live in this denominational world. I just don't think that we can escape this. So this has to do with specifically the question of the name Lutheran. And people will say, well, look, I'm not Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopalian or Presbyterian or whatever. I'm Christian. This is the same thing that happened in First Corinthians. I'm of Apollos, I'm of Cephas, I'm of Paul, and I'm of Christ. Those are the really super. And Paul says, all of you are being ridiculous. You know, the point is, you have to hold to the Lord's Word, but if they don't, if you don't hold to the Lord's Word, you have to. You do need a name for this. And so because the name is connected to the doctrine, we got to stick with it. I have this little short, super short little blog called on the Name Lutheran. I can share it. That's what I should do. So we can look at this thing. The. On the name Lutheran. Where is it? Here it is. So Luther would always talk about how it's ridiculous that people are called by my name. I mean, that's kind of an absurdity. In the first place, I ask that men make no reference to my name. Let them call themselves Christians, not Lutherans. What's Luther? After all, the teaching isn't mine. I wasn't crucified for anyone. But then look at this one. Here's an interesting. He says, true, by any consideration of body or soul, you should never say, I'm a Lutheran or a Papist for that matter. For neither of them died for you? Or is your master Christ alone died for you? He alone is your master. You should confess yourself a Christian. But if you are convinced that Luther's teaching is in accord with the Gospel, the Pope's not, then you should not discard Luther so completely, lest with him you discard the teaching which you nevertheless recognize as Christ's teaching. You should rather say, whether Luther is a rascal or a saint, I don't care. His teaching is not his but Christ's. This is Paul who writes in 2 Timothy 1:8, don't be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me a prisoner for his sake. Now that is so interesting. Luther says, if it had been enough for Timothy to confess the Gospel, Paul would not have commanded him not to be ashamed also of Paul, not of Paul as a person, but Paul as a prisoner for the sake of the Gospel. So if Timothy would have said, I don't hold with Peter or Paul, but with Christ, when he knew that Peter and Paul were teaching Christ, he would be denying Christ himself. This is the point. Here's the third one. Although I very much dislike that doctrine and people have to suffer to be called Lutheran and thus see God's word profaned with my name. Still, they'll have to let Luther as well as Lutheran doctrine and people alone and let them be held in esteem because it's not the person, it's the teaching. It's the teaching. This is the point. It's the teaching. So that we have to. We have to have these names for the sake of grabbing a hold of the teaching and knowing that the teaching is out there. Now the whole big question of denominations, I think, is settled in this way. We got to say, what does Jesus give to me? What does Jesus want me to have? And he wants me to have the gospel. He wants me to have baptism. He wants me to have the body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. And that is what Lutheran means. And everyone who's not Lutheran is saying that that's not what it means to be. So I think that's the. This is the critical point when it comes to denominations. Thanks for listening to the Theology Q and A podcast. Wolfmiel co contact is how you can send questions. You can also download this Against Rome free book that's there. You can also sign up for Pastor Flammy's. Oh, you have to go to his website. Sign up for Pastor Flammy's Luther trip. Oh, if you. And also speaking of, you know, getting free stuff, were we talking about that with the if you sign up for the Wednesday whatnot, we send out a free book every month, so that's pretty cool. Wolfmuller Co Wednesday thanks for being part of the fun.