Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, podcast theologians. It's the theology Q and A podcast. Pastor Brian Wolfeilder of St. Paul and Jesus Staff Lutheran Churches, Austin, Texas, with Pastor Andrew Packer, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, I heard a rumor about you that you're drafting a resolution for the upcoming synodical convention that actually requires all pastors to wear Roman clerical collars. Is this true?
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Now that you say it, I kind of want to do it. But I actually heard another rumor about me that I'm going to share that has to be debunked.
Apparently this couple's come twice to my church on a Saturday evening hoping to see me, and I have not been here. So they asked the other pastor. They said they heard a rumor I was actually a pastor at Good Shepherd Collinsville. So it is true. I am actually a pastor at Good Shepherd Collinsville. But Saturday nights or every other week, we trade off. Whoever's preaching does everything. So I apologize to those people who have stopped by twice now and believe the rumor that perhaps I'm not actually a pastor here. So wanted to clear that up.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: We got seven questions for the podcast today. A question about the apocrypha, A question about life after death and the orthodox doctrine of toll houses. A question about church security and if Christians should be passive or active in self defense. A question about fellowship in the church. A question about absolution in the liturgy. A question about how we witness with our bodies, what means to be a witness versus an observer of stuff like weddings and things like that. And then the last question, why so much forgiveness of the church? What's the deal on the.
On the forgiveness of sins that it comes to us over and over again? Here's the podcast.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: All right, what is the LCMS view on and history with the Apocrypha? You said that's a question you've been getting at your church. And it's also being sent here.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: This is big time. I want to refer to this text by Martin Chemnitz, the Examination of the Council of Trent, who beautifully gets into this question about the Apocrypha.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: I haven't published it yet, but this is my draft publication of the book, the Examination of the Council of Trent. Martin's part one, and he talks about the Apocrypha and the canon and, and how it, and how we got the books that are in there and what to do with the Apocrypha. Here's the basic thing.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Chemnitz points out to us, number one, that the books that are in the canon are the books of the prophets and the apostles. So the prophets are the Old Testament books, the apostles are the New Testament books. And. And nobody thought that the Apocrypha, those books that were between Malachi and John the Baptist, nobody thought that they were prophetic.
Like, the Catholic Church doesn't claim that they're prophetic books because they weren't written by the prophets. Right. There were no prophets between Malachi and John the Baptist.
So Chemnitz says the books in the Bible are the prophetic and apostolic books, the apocryphal books in between. Everybody knew that they were good, but not prophetic. So they were almost always listed as a separate category. They were. They were taken as a, again, kind of helpful history, but. And pious writings, but not as canonical, authoritative texts. That changes in Trent. And so Chemnitz shows all these great quotes from the Church Fathers that basically put forth what's called the Protestant canon that's like, this is how it's basically always been. But Trent needs some of those passages, like in Maccabees and in Judith, because they're looking around for passages about purgatory and prayer to the saints and find surprisingly few in the prophets and apostles. In fact, none.
So they. They. In some ways, Trent elevates the apocrypha to a status that it never had before.
And Chemnitz shows this beautifully. Well, I'm not sure that we'll have the link to this in the description below. So it's a Catholic innovation to elevate the Apocrypha in such a place because it was needed for those two things. Now, how does Chemnitz argue against those two things? Prayer to the saints and purgatory? He says this is basically Greek pagan thought entering into the theological conversation of the Church, which is exactly what the apocryphal texts show.
It's that great time of Hellenization when Alexander the Great, you know, in 300, is conquering the world.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Even in Israel and Jerusalem, they're being exposed to all this pagan. So pagan ideas are working their way in there, including purgatory. It's a pagan idea. Prayer of the saints, pagan idea. So Luther point or. Sorry. Chemnitz points back to those. To the. To the kind of paganizing influence of the apocryphal text. Now, we still consider them to be pious historical texts and helpful, but. But not prophetic. And that's the whole point. They never were prophetic. So it's kind of a trick. The Catholic Church says, hey, how come you don't. How can you take these books out of the Bible.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Well, especially since we actually never took them out of the Bible. Right. It wasn't until was it the 20th century in the United States when those finally started coming out of like the King James Bibles in America. It was relatively late, like Luther had them in his. But they were just viewed as helpful books like Christian literature for reading. They weren't elevated to the level of Scripture in the same way that the rest of the Bible was. I always have people ask me about the Apocrypha and I'll basically tell them, look, Concordia Publishing House has a Lutheran kind of study version of the Apocrypha. If you, if you want to read it, do that.
But I first tell them if you don't know your Bible like really well, read that a lot first. And then go on to the Apocrypha. Like it's great if you want to read it. It's got interesting stuff. But I haven't found most modern Christians know their Bibles well enough to be worried too much about the Apocrypha at this point. Like I'm fine if you want to read it and that's great. I usually read through it like once every couple, two, three years go back through it. But I'd much rather have people well versed in the Scripture than the Apocrypha itself.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: That's right. So I'm just looking here on this chemnitz thing. Canonical and apocryphal books. He says the third question is, oh, I can show you this. Oh, I figured this fancy thing out. But when we were goofing around before that. I can share the screen. This is. So let's see what happens. It could be a disaster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at this. The third question, which of the books belong to the canon? This involves the books which are in the so called Vulgate. The ancient church clearly attests that these books, some belong to the canon while others do not. The latter are the apocrypha according to the designation of Jerome. For thus he names the writings which are doubted. So that name Apocrypha comes from Jerome himself. To the Old Testament apocrypha belong Wisdom, Ecclesiastes, Judah, Tobit, third Ezra, fourth Ezra, Baruch, Epistle, Jeremiah, the books of the Maccabees, and the additions of Esther and Daniel. These books, some of these books are written after the time of the prophets, others bear the name of the prophets but are not confidently attested.
And he goes on to quote the church fathers who give this stuff. Let me see here.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: I have all the Footnotes here from all the church fathers about all these things as well, which you can go and dig into. So this is really.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: This is really such a helpful thing that Chemnitz has done for us to give us this text so that we don't have to be worried about this idea. Now here let me point out one more thing, though, about the Roman Catholic apologists who do this kind of tricky business.
And this especially comes up when they start talking about Luther and James, because the ancient church and into the Middle Ages also understood that there was a kind of New Testament apocrypha, what we sometimes call the anti ligomena, the books that aren't everywhere. From the very beginning, that'd be like Hebrews, second Peter, Jude, Revelation, second and third, John and James.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: And Luther's wondering about that.
He's asking the questions about who wrote the books and what's in the books. And he sees in James, not a lot of gospel. And so he calls it an epistle of straw.
He's confirming its New Testament apocryphal status.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: The Catholic Church just blasts Luther for that. They just, they. They just lay into, look, Luther's deciding what books are in and out of the Bible in the. But then in almost the same breath, our Catholic friends will come back and say, look how we picked what books go in and out of the Bible. Look how great we are.
It's like, you're great for doing it, and Luther's a scoundrel for doing it. It's like, make up your mind. First of all, Luther didn't do it. And second of all, neither do you.
The Lord himself gave us the Holy Scriptures. He's the one who inspired the prophets and apostles to write down what they wrote down for us. And we rejoice in having this collection of the Catholic and of the prophets and the apostles in the canon.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: All right, are you ready for the next question?
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: This one's about after death.
My wife and I have been searching for a church home for a long time. Your podcast and discussions have been instrumental in leading us to our confirmation as Lutherans last Sunday, which was.
[00:09:11] Speaker B: Back in June.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: That's cool.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Thank you for your faithfulness in your work. I'd be interested in hearing about the journey of the soul immediately after death, as opposed to the Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox toll houses belief.
Thank you again. And the peace of Christ be with you.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: I don't know about that toll house. Do you know about that?
[00:09:28] Speaker B: I looked it up. While you're finishing answering the other question. So.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: What I found was this their belief is after death. And I guess this is not a formally defined dogma like the Trinity or incarnation, but it's widely held belief.
After death, the soul is escorted by angels toward heaven. Along the way, it passes through a series of toll houses or custom stations in the air, each guarded by demons who accuse the soul of specific sins. One for pride, one for lying, one for lust, etc. The demons attempt to seize the soul if they find unrepentant sins, or if the person's good deeds are insufficient to pay the toll. The angels defend the soul, presenting its good deeds, repentance, and especially the prayers of the church, almsgiving done on its behalf Almighty and the holy mysteries, especially confession and communion. If the soul passes all the toll houses, it proceeds to the particular judgment and awaits the final resurrection. If it fails, the demons drag it to Hades until the last judgment. That is new to me. I'm not familiar with that.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I am not familiar with that either. That sounds horrific. Okay, so here's a few Bible passages. Paul says Philippians. Remember when he's thinking about dying in Philippians and he's like, man to depart. It's be so much better to die. But I guess it's better for you that I remain. I'm hard pressed, I don't know what to do. I guess I'll stay here. He says, I have the desire to depart and be with Christ. That's just what it says. Depart and be with. That's it. Second Corinthians 5, Paul at verse 8. We're confident, well pleased rather. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So it's almost like an instantaneous. It's either one or the other. Absent from the body is present with the Lord.
Jesus says, remember to the thief, you'll be with me in paradise. Probably the text that gives us the most insight, which, which we use in our hymns and our poetry is Lazarus and the Rich Man.
When Lazarus dies, the angels come and bear his soul to Abraham's bosom. And so we sing in the church, Lord, let at last thine angels come to Abram's bosom. Bear me home, that I may die unfearing. It's beautiful confession, but that's about it. I don't think the Scriptures tell us very much at all.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: About.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: The whole process of getting our soul to the presence of God.
It seems like it's almost instantaneous. And there's no talk of Toll House. I mean this idea that, I mean, you know, the comforting text to apply to this might be John chapter 5, where Jesus says, there's a couple of things in John chapter five that talk about death and resurrection that are. That are precious for us.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: And this is this kind of. This one of these texts that is just to be kind of imprinted on our hearts.
Jesus says.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: He talks about judging. Here's my word. Yeah. Verse 24, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life, that now has it now, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. So that we have already, according to the word of Jesus, passed from death to life. We've already died and been raised. This is the. Really our doctrine of baptism. Also. The hour is coming, and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. I think this has to do with the preaching of the Word and faith in Christ, and that's the life of faith. And then Jesus goes on to say, as the Father has life in himself, so he is granted the Son to have life in himself and has given him authority to exercise judgment also because he's the Son of man. Don't marvel at this. For the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice. So Jesus says, right now you're hearing my voice. And some are believing and living. On the last day, everybody, even those who are buried, are going to hear my voice. And they're going to. And they're going to come up out of the grave. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation. So that's the general resurrection and the doctrine of judgment. All right there in that verse. Then Jesus goes on to say, I myself can do nothing as I hear. I judge. My judgment is righteous because I do not seek my own, but the will of the Father who sent me. So that text, John 5, 24, 30, has a lot in it, including this idea that you don't come into judgment.
This is against this idea that when we die that there's this St. Peter is there waiting to see if we can go in or not. No, the judgment of our sin happened already on the cross.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: This is one of those things. Maybe I'm being overly simplistic here, but I don't think so. I think this answers this in my mind fairly easily. If you just read your Bible, would you ever just get that idea of these toll houses that I just read from the. Just reading the Bible? I think the pretty clear answer is no, there's nothing, nothing even remotely close to that.
So if you just read your Bible and there's nothing even remotely close to that, then it's clearly coming from outside sources, and those outside sources are clearly in contradiction with Scripture. I just. I don't know. I understand how these things come to be. You know, this goes back to Chemnitz and the question we were answering earlier about the Apocrypha.
Same kind of thing, though. A lot of this clearly comes out of like pagan thought, right? This is coming out of pagan thinking. Pagan thought, and then you put a Christian veneer on it, but underneath it's still very much pagan ideas. Which maybe sounds a little overly harsh, but I just, I can't square it with any of the verses you read or any verses we have in the Bible about this. It seems very clear that if you die and you're a Christian, your soul goes to be with Jesus.
Period. End of discussion. And then when Jesus returns, our bodies are raised bodies and souls are reunited, and you live as an embodied soul forever and ever on the new earth. It just seems very crystal clear to me. All the other stuff, I don't know, you have to jump through a lot of hoops and bring a lot of stuff from outside Scripture to come anywhere close to that kind of thinking. So I don't.
I looked over some of the history they listed and still.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: I don't know, it's not impressive to me. All right, let's do the next one.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: This one, speaking of controversial topics, this one is on church security and martyrdom.
So maybe I can shorten their question a little bit.
Maybe not. There's a bunch of steps here. With the rise of violence against churches in America, many churches have taken up the mantle to provide or hire church security. Nehemiah had the people take up arms to protect themselves. The doorkeepers in the house of the Lord were armed. Jesus seems to advocate taking up arms in Luke 22:36. The Crusades can be looked at as Christians defending their homeland, society, culture, and certainly also the faith from external threats of violence. Christians in the US may also be unique in having a secured right to bear arms. Where this has not always been the case for most of history or locations for Christians to exercise, contrasting the above advocacy of defending ourselves with violence, there stands a stark alternative of martyrdom.
As you've done some deeper studies into martyrs than others. How the saints of old confronted self preservation versus standing undeterred and steadfast as death comes.
How does love of neighbor also Weigh in to protect my fellow Christians from harm.
Does a pastor, the shepherd and watchmen on the wall, have more duty to fight in defense of those under his care?
The contrast images of the pistol packing pastor protecting the the sheep or the Christ like shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep needs more definition through your thoughtful deliberations, if you would be so kind.
So.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: It seems to me, if I could summarize the question, what it's getting at is distinguishing from Christians, perhaps using self defense outside of. Outside of church versus then what is the role of security guards or using violence to defend ourselves in church.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: As the church. It sounds like that seems to be the distinction he's making to me.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's great.
This is important because, you know, this came up in the large catechism with annotation, part of that controversy, because Dr. Was it Biermann in there wrote on how the Christian never is called to defend themselves and always to suffer abuse rather than to defend themselves. You can defend your neighbor, but you can't defend yourself. And I think that is just wrong.
We dug up all these Luther quotes about how it's like the most basic part of natural law to defend yourself. Here's what I'd like to say.
I have a. I wonder if I could draw it.
I can draw. I have.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: A quadrant. If you're listening on the podcast, you're not going to be able to see it, is that.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: This is our kind of duty to defend versus.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Duty to submit. And the question is.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Who and why am I being afflicted? Okay, so the first question is who and is it someone who's official, Someone who's like part of the government or someone who has the office of bearing the sword or just some sort of thug? Right? So is the person who's bringing persecution to me, like Pontius Pilate or the Roman emperor or the Sanhedrin, or is it just some guy as I'm walking up to Jerusalem and beats me half dead and leaves me on the side? And then the second question is, why am I being afflicted because I'm a Christian, or am I being afflicted, afflicted for some other reason, like some dude just wants to steal my stuff? Okay, and here's where. Here's how we fill this out. If I am being afflicted because I'm a Christian and by someone who's an official, that's martyrdom. And this is when I'm dragged to court, this is when I'm arrested, and this is when I turn the Other cheek. This is when I, when the person who has the office of the sword says do this, then I go with them that I have a duty to submit to them. On the other hand, if someone is a thug who just wants to take my wallet, then in fact I have a duty to resist not only because.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: For the sake of my neighbor, because once he takes my wallet, he's going to go take their wallet, but also just because it's wrong. So I have a duty to self defense over here if it's some again non authorized, but not because I'm a Christian. Now this doesn't answer this question of what if someone is officially persecuting me not because I'm a Christian but just for whatever reason? Or what if some thug is doing it because I'm a Christian? Like someone comes to shoot up the church, right? And then this is where we actually, I don't think have a definite word from the Lord. We actually have an option. And here, this is where it's called.
We can use love and wisdom. So we can say we have the option to submit or we have the option to resist.
And it just depends on what will help serve the gospel better. So some thug comes to hurt me because I'm a Christian, I can resist him or I can submit to him, just depending on what will help the gospel. This is how Paul does it. Like sometimes he claims his Roman citizenship and sometimes he doesn't. And it's just a question for him what's going to help serve the gospel. So I think this little chart of like when and why and where to resist and to not resist is really helpful. We're not, we're not always martyrs like some thug stealing my, trying to steal my car does not. That's not martyrdom, that's just criminal stuff. And for the sake of even our own selves as well as the neighbor, there's a duty to resist. That that comes in over there thoughts about that.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: What would.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: I really like that diagram. I think that's really helpful. What would you, would you say to someone who says, well Pastor Wolfgang, Jesus says to turn another cheek. Jesus seems to leave no room for us using violence of any kind ever. And we have a strand of that, right? The Anabaptists have a strand of that. Probably in our day and age, Stanley Howard Voss was a big one promoting kind of that kind of pacifism.
And then I know it's influenced a lot of people, even some in the lcms, our own church body have been influenced by that. What would you say to those who feel very strongly that it's never okay to use any kind of violence ever, whether it's in self defense, for self, for the neighbor, for anyone, just never okay. Or at least it has to be bare minimum force so that it can't ever result in perhaps you taking another person's life.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I just. Right, it's so I just think that this turn the other cheek and the go the extra mile and the give the jacket also is understood in the context of persecution.
And so the person who's asking you to turn the other cheek is not the thief who's walking by, but the Roman soldier who might also be a thief, but he's a soldier.
The one who's asking you to go the extra mile is not the stranger or for example, your child. Could you imagine that?
What if the Christian children got a hold of the Sermon on the Mount and they realized that their parents had to turn the other cheek? And so they would tell their parents, I want you to go an extra mile for me. And it kind of destroys every sense of order. So I think that that Sermon on the Mount has to be understood in the context of the who's asking you to do the thing now? Again, it could be. And I think that we lean that way. We lean towards.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Submission for the sake of love, even to the thug and even to the government who's being evil not because we're Christian, but just because they're tyrants. We lean towards submission. That's the basic sense of the Christian life, is one of submission. Remember when Paul says in Ephesians 20, submit to one another.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: And that's kind of the hard part of being a Christian is this basic posture of submission that all of us assume. But there's sometimes when you have to stand up and you have to grab a hold of the hand that keeps striking every cheek and arrest it at last.
And we really lean on the people who have the calling to do that, to do that. Which is why the question of church security is so nice. Because even the people who say, hey, Christians shouldn't be armed. I mean, that's, I think it's just dumb, but whatever. That doesn't mean that the police shouldn't be armed and that they shouldn't stop people from coming to do harm in a church. That's their whole point. That's the whole point of the police. So.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: So this is important. And we have to think of our, we have to think of this according to our office. So that here when I, when the official comes to me, to abuse me because I'm a Christian. I have the office of martyr. I have the office of Christian here. I have the office of person because I'm dealing with another person. It's not someone in authority over me. And so we have to say, well, what is the office I'm in and how does it work out according to the estates and so forth?
[00:24:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's extremely helpful. I don't know if there's a way to put a link on the podcast to a visual that they could look up. You'll just have to come to the video. And if you don't normally watch, you'll have to come to video so you can see the quadrants and get the full picture. Otherwise you'll be missing out. All right, let's do the next question. Thank you, Pastor Brian, for all your wonderful YouTube topics. I have a biblical application question. In Acts 2:42, it reads, and they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. You have youtubes on the apostles teaching, breaking of bread and prayers. But can you do a video on the fellowship? How does your church do fellowship? Do you have any models or methods or tips or do's and don'ts that you'd like to share in the area of organizing fellowship groups in a church?
[00:25:40] Speaker A: It's interesting. I think the fellowship there in Acts 2:42 is not like the fellowship hall or like the coffee afterwards. I think it's talking about the bond of faith and love that is expressed in the Lord's Supper. So I think the fellowship in Acts 2:42 is really our doctrine of closed communion that's being taught there. So that they were of one accord, they had one mind, one voice, one confession. This is when. So that the best place that we express fellowship is in the divine service. When we're confessing together, that's when we're singing together, when we're praying together, the Lord's Prayer, when we're confessing together the Apostles Creed, when we're joining our hearts and minds and voices to bring to the Lord this common.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Supplication or common theology, common statement of what we believe. I think that's great. Now, that doesn't mean that we don't live together in love. And I think that this is probably an overlooked part of the church.
It should be. Every Christian has the obligation to have other Christian friends.
If it's impossible, it's impossible. We just finished worldwide Bible class this morning on Joseph in Egypt. And Luther's like, look at this. He's by him. He's totally by himself for 10 years, not a single Christian friend around or family. It's just got to be disastrous. Someone said that's like going to college, but that you should. So it's one of these kind of Christian inventory things. You should say, do I have a church?
I should know what my church is. Do I have. A pastor should know that. Do I have Christian friends?
And do I have Christian friends at church? Because it's just. It's easier to go to church when your friends are there. And so one of the things that we need to think about when we go to church is, do I have friends there? I need to. If I don't, I need to make friends there. And they don't have to be people like you, you know, that have the same number of kids and the same kind of job. It could be the widow. It could be the, you know, the single college kid who, you know, the guy that just moved to town and he's trying to get his math degree or whatever. It could, you know, it can be people of different socioeconomic conditions. So you're not looking for someone who's like you. You're just looking for someone who's there with you, who confesses. And I could say, now I know I have a friend who's also at church. And this is maybe a fourth thing here is that I think one of the keys to the growth of the church now is that people pray for the gift of hospitality so that people are ready to welcome in people who are visiting church and say, you're with us now. Here's my name, here's my number. Here's our group chat for our young adult group or for our ladies, Bible study or whatever. You're with us now. You're with us. And that. That attitude is one of the most important things about the. About the life of the church.
So that's a few thoughts now, what to do about this? It's good to have time where there's coffee and, you know, before and after Bible class. We had to stretch out our schedule here at St. Paul to give more time after the services, but then the services just got longer, so we.
That doesn't really work anymore. But it's also good, you know, our guys have a monthly fire pit where they just go and light a fire and stand around and talk to have those kind of opportunities.
LWML is a similar thing for the ladies, although they've always got an agenda and a program that they go through and everything.
Young ladies Bible study. A lot of these things are happening, hopefully organically in our churches, but we need to have these opportunities for people just to know each other, to bless each other, to become friends with each other.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: There was a study I read years ago that said, if someone's going to stay in a church, I think it's something like. I don't remember the exact details, so.
But it was on average, like, they had seven friends in the church, something like that.
Like, people who had fewer friends in the church were more likely to fall away from the church.
Right. Because they don't have those connections that are drawing them back in. And probably then they don't have someone else outside the pastor checking in on them. I always try to tell people, like, look, people expect me to contact them for not being in church because they're like, oh, he's the pastor. He's getting paid to do that, you know?
But when you reach out to them and say, hey, I noticed you weren't here, that has, I think, a lot bigger impact. Because someone not the pastor noticed I wasn't in church. And that means something to them. I think that's part of it. Like, you have connections, and those people notice you're not there. And there's been a lot of discussion. I've done a lot on hospitality in my church. I taught out for a month last September, a year. I guess it was over a year ago now.
So I did a whole thing on hospitality and how it connects to the church and evangelism and all kinds of things. But related to that is this whole discussion right now of the lack of third spaces for people to come together and just hang out. Right. It's like we live in a time. Like Luther talks about Joseph being lonely. As you mentioned, we've got a lot of lonely people who are disconnected. And having the church be a place where people can gather together to hang out with people and to talk to people. And I've often said to my churches over the years, like, how can you commune with people week in and week out and be completely indifferent to who they are, what they're going through? You know, like, how can you pray for them? It's great. Like, the Lord Supper does unite us, but at the same time, as you walk away from the rail, if it's going to unite us in Christ, then it should also unite us in.
With one another in the church. You know, not that you're gonna be friends with everyone or know everyone, but to make, like you said, some effort to have Christian friends, to have people that you're, you're trying to get to know whether they're exactly like you or not makes no difference. But making sure you make those relationships, make time for them, have time for hanging out and talking after church. You know, so many people these days, they come into church, they rush in, they rush out and they don't talk to anyone. And it's like, hey, like there's, you may, maybe you don't need it, maybe you already have your group of friends and stuff, but there's other people in the church who do need it. So talk to them, hang out with them, get to know them, be someone who's available for others because there's a lot of people looking for that. And that is, like you said, if you want to grow the church, if you want to strengthen the church, Christian friendships is going to be one of the best ways to do that. And it's good too, not just for growing, strengthening church, but even strengthening the individuals. So, so they know that there's people they can go to when they have problems. They know people are praying for them or whatever it may be. Like it just, it makes a huge difference across the board.
And I think because as Lutherans and you kind of alluded to this, if this is what you were getting at as well, we're very good on the doctrine of fellowship at the Lord's Supper. Right. Really good at that. I think sometimes we've neglected outside of that. Right. So we're like, well, real fellowship happens at the Lord's Supper. Yes, amen.
But it doesn't neglect the fact that we need fellowship outside the Lord's Supper too. And that's something I've seen. Sometimes we're lacking or maybe we've emphasized one to the neglect of the other in an unhealthy way because we want to magnify what the Lord's Supper does for us, which is great. But we also don't want to overly minimize what Christian friendship and hanging out and getting to know each other and supporting each other is how that's good for the body and how that's the body living out what happened at the Lord's Supper in real time with a real community, with real people.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Amen to that.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: All right. We are on the absolution. Is the absolution as important as the creeds, the Lord's Prayer, the words of institution, as some LCMS Lutheran churches de Content, the 500 plus year old liturgy and the name of Adiaphora?
That's what they have. Yeah. I don't the absolution is under attack as the words of absolution are being left out in the name of cultural relevance.
[00:33:26] Speaker A: That's good. So let's talk about the absolution. The absolution. Remember, the absolution is the unique treasure of the Lutheran Church. Ooh, man, do I get in trouble when I say that. But it's got to be true, right? The only. If you just, like, look through the liturgies of other churches, the closest you can get. Well, the Anglicans in their rite of visitation of the sick and have an absolution that looks a lot like the Lutheran absolution. So they give it to you when you're dying. But that's about the only other place, because the Presbyterians and anyone to the Protestant side of the Reformed is going to have the assurance of pardon, and the Catholics and Orthodox and anyone in that kind of tradition is going to have some sort of.
The thing that you're getting is not the absolution, but rather the remission of the temporal consequences of your sins that goes along with the.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Goes along with the requirements for you to do the.
How come I can't think of the theological word, the Hail Marys and all the kind of Lord's prayers and. And all the requirements comes out of confession. What. What is that word, Pastor Packer? How come I can.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: I'm frozen in my mind.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Anyway, keep going.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: You have to do all that stuff. And so it's not just this free blast of mercy that the.
The giving out of the blood of Christ and justification and the gifts of heaven, and it's not only done privately, but also it's in the liturgy now. It's probably a latecomer to the liturgy, so that when we go to church and the very first thing that happens is we confess our sins and we receive the forgiveness of sins. That's probably the thing that was added, I don't know, a couple hundred years ago, probably coming out of pietism, which de. Emphasized the individual confession. Absolution. This is the story I've been told, although I'm suspicious of this story for no reason than the fact that I wonder if there's something more going on. But anyway, the most common way of hearing the absolution is the first thing in church. I confess I'm a poor, miserable sinner. And then the pastor stands up there and says, I forgive you all your sins in the name and in the stead of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. This is such a scandal to people, especially coming from, like a Protestant Pentecostal background. And they say, who's that? How dare he?
And you say, what did he offend? What words did he offend you with?
And he said, he offended me with the promise that my sins are forgiven. It's like, well, that doesn't seem so bad. Like, at least he didn't, you know, like, say you had an ugly dress on or something. You know, like, how would you be offended by the fact that your sins are forgiven? But I think the words that offend the Protestants are, I in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: But we should those that word I is taught to us by Jesus when he says, whoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven. So it is our forgiving that brings Jesus forgiveness. And the picture. Whenever I talk about this, Carrie always says, you have to use the picture of the judge and the bailiff. So if you could imagine, Pastor Packer, you're in prison and your case is being heard in front of the judge in the court across the street. And the judge says, pastor Packer is free. He can go free, but you're still sitting in prison till the bailiff, who has the key to your cell, hears the word of the judge and walks across the street and goes into the jail and opens the door and says, I set you free. And you, Pastor Packer, say, only the judge can set me free. I'm staying right here.
No, you say, okay, out you go. Now, that can go wrong two different ways. Number one, if the judge doesn't set you free but the bailiff does, you're wandering around, but you're not really free. You're on the lam and they're going to track you down and throw you back in. Or if the judge sets you free and the bailiff goes and plays golf, now you're still sitting there. So this when Jesus institutes the office of the keys, Matthew 16, Matthew 18, John 20, he does so for the sake of the Christian, knowing that the verdict spoken in heaven applies to them, that our sins are forgiven, and that we're set, and that we're set free.
Now, that's the kind of setup for the absolution conversation. I'll toss it to you for the real question here, which is, what is going on when churches are dropping the absolution from the liturgy or from the service?
[00:37:35] Speaker B: I think, like he said, it seems to be that this part of confessing sin, right, there's two parts that often offend people. You mentioned, they're often offended by the I forgive you all your sins. And I always point out to people, but I didn't say just me. I said in the stead and by the command of Christ.
But before that, they have to confess that they are poor, miserable sinners, Right? And that can seem not very visitor friendly, can seem to put people off because we're having people come in and confess all these awful things about themselves. And, you know, maybe it seems to limit outreach. I've heard that excuse before.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: It makes people feel bad, right? It doesn't. It's not fun to confess sins. But going back to what you said about his question about the role of it, like where it falls in the service, it is following a very biblical pattern. Right before the priest would go into the tabernacle or temple, they had to wash right in the laver. That was a picture of baptism, right? And we say every time we confess our sins, what are we doing? We're returning to the promise of our baptism.
So washing before you eat.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: Is, you know, before you go into God's presence. This is very common for you. Going to eat in God's presence, especially like in the divine service, is a common refrain throughout the Bible. So theologically, it makes perfect sense to have it where we have it and to keep it there because it is a good weekly reminder for us that we are poor, miserable sinners who only survive and live in the words of absolution. And so we begin the service that way, we end the service with the Lord's Supper that way. And everything in between is pointing us back to the forgiveness we have in Christ. So I do think his instincts about the reasons why it's dropped out being because of cultural relevance is probably spot on. I've never heard anyone argue to get rid of it just because, well, we should only have private confession. Absolution. I've heard guys not like it because they want more private confession or whatever, but I've never heard someone say we should just get rid of it altogether. Every time I've heard it argued to get rid of is usually because it's kind of offensive to people, especially visitors who might come in and be like, what am I? What am I saying? I, a poor miserable sinner, I deserve temporal and eternal consequences. What are you guys saying about me? But I also think that's why, exactly, you should keep it in because your visitors, being right up front, is being struck with the fact that they're going to enter into the presence of a holy God and they need to know who they are and that there is forgiveness for their sin. Like right from the get go.
So even if they get confused and tune you out the rest of the way, they've heard right from the beginning law and gospel right at the beginning of the service. And I think that's a really key part for that. And it was. Who was it, Francis Pieper, who said that individual confession absolution is like the pastor taking a gold coin, right. And just putting it right into your hand and saying, this is yours. But the general confession, he said, is still the pastor throwing those gold coins out to the congregation, right? And whoever receives it in faith, catches it out of the air, has it, and says, I've got it. I've got the forgiveness of sins. So you're still giving the forgiveness of sins. It's still really being given. I also don't know why you'd want to remove that.
Forgiveness is really being given to everyone present, and whoever receives it in faith has it. So why would you ever want to get rid of that? Especially as a preparation to enter in, to the service, into the presence of our Lord to receive his gifts.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: So the absolution as a liturgical piece is. Should not be. Should be understood as a kind of a. Like a formal speaking of the absolution in general, which is nothing other than the gospel, the forgiveness of sin. And in that way, like I'm looking at the question says, is the absolution as important as the creed, Lord's Prayer, words of institution, that all of those things are the absolution. Also, the preaching is absolving. The Scripture is absolving, the words of institution. When Jesus says, given for you for the forgiveness of sins, that's the absolution. And in fact, it's the absolution that gives the Lord's Supper its power. It's all. It's. It's the whole purpose of the Church is the absolution where. That's where Luther says, everything is instituted in the church that we would receive there nothing but the unending daily forgiveness of all of our sins. That's. That is the absolution. That's the. That's the whole point. And this is well said. Like, you can hand me the coin, you can throw out the coin. Everything in the church is to give is to give that there. One other thing to note is that the liturgical actions are a reflection of what's going on in heaven. And the big thing in heaven is this court case where the devil is accusing us and Jesus is defending us. So just like we come into, you know, when you come into the courtroom, the Very first thing you have to do is make a plea. Innocent or guilty. So you come into the divine service and the very first thing you do is you make a plea. I'm guilty. And then the court unfolds beautifully with Christ as our defender and advocate. And the.
The argument is made that we're the righteous ones that belong to the Lord. It's beautiful.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Beliefs with our actions. Fashion of one theology with the church or not attending a gay union to not confess.
I guess it'd be not attending a gay union to not confess. Approval of the marriage. Are there other things in this category to be mindful of? For example, what should I take it to mean if I stand up in a friend's wedding or attend a friend's baby dedication?
[00:42:53] Speaker A: That is a very good question.
So I think the.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: To be a witness, there's. Okay, there's. There's a difference between being an observer and being a witness. I would say, for example, there was lots of people who watched Stephen get stoned in Jerusalem, but Saul was there holding the jackets of the stoners, and he was an official witness. He gave his pledge to that.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: So that is a distinction that the Bible makes, and I think it's probably a distinction that the law makes in one way or another that to be official.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: Witness is to give your approval of the thing that's happening. And this is why.
[00:43:47] Speaker A: It would be.
This is why the Christian is not going to go to.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: A wedding of two men or what is pretending like a wedding of two men or two women.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: Certainly you could not stand as an official witness of that, but you could not. You can't even confess that as a re. As a real thing. So you can't. You couldn't go to that. I do.
I think that's probably also the case. If we. If, like any wedding, if we've determined that the wedding. That whatever's going on with this wedding itself is not a valid thing for whatever reason, then we probably don't go to it.
It's just better to try to.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: Abstain from the thing. Now, the baby dedication is interesting because.
And I think that's slightly different because would we say that like a baby dedication where you pray for the baby to be commended to the Lord, that's fine. The problem is that it's replacing baptism, which is unfine.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: So I would say for like, a baby dedication, could you go as a witness of the thing, like, if there was, like, sponsors or they did some sort of weird baby dedication, godparents or something? No, you could not do that. Could you go as an observer of a baby dedication. I think you could probably go as an observer, but not as a witness. So I think that would fall in that category of it's not a. It's not an unreal thing. It's not a necessarily bad thing insofar as it is what it is.
[00:45:30] Speaker B: It's an incomplete thing.
They only have, like, they have part of the picture, right? So they're. They have that urge, like, I know I should do something for this child.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: But they don't believe because they believe baptism is the child's work and not God's work.
They don't believe the child can be baptized, but they know something should happen. So they dedicate the child to the Lord, which, like you said, in of itself is a good thing. It's good for parents to commit to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. It's good for them to commit, praying for their children and doing all those things. Those are all fantastic. It's just because they misunderstand baptism as being the child's work and not God's work.
They have parts of what they should be doing.
You know, they've got part of it and they're missing a really, really important part. But what they're doing in of itself is not, as you said, not wrong. It's just. It's misguided and misunderstood, but it's not. It's not. I wouldn't say it's sinful.
It's a good thing to dedicate your children to the Lord. It's just that they're missing a really important part that they also. We should encourage them to continue with.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: So that's. That's one piece of the puzzle, right? That's actually.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Like just thinking about other occasions. Like what could you go to a bar mitzvah just as an observer, a celebrant to a bar mitzvah? Not as any sort of official sort of thing.
I think. I think so. I think you can go and observe. This is. Again, it's the difference between observing and witnessing.
There's a difference for me, like, there's a. I can go as an observer to just about any funeral, but I can't be a celebrant or I can't be the person who's leading if it's not a. Not if it's not a Christian funeral or if it's not a Lutheran Christian funeral, you know, I can't. I can't lead that. There's weddings that I could go to as an observer, but I couldn't stand up and be a witness. That's the wedding thing is a little bit different because it's like the whole festival itself is almost brought into that kind of witness category.
And I think that's why it's a little bit different.
But anyway, I'm just kind of thinking out loud about this.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: I think it's helpful. I think it goes back to a previous question we answered where when a lot of these things, love and wisdom are going to have to be the guiding principle. Because there are some things that are very clear. Like you said, not attending a so called gay mirage, as some people call it, not marriage, but a mirage, not attending that. I think it's pretty clear cut. There's other things where love and wisdom are gonna have to be your guide. There's not always going to be a simple answer for every situation where being present or not present, what is it confessing, what is it not confessing? Not always going to be easy. But there are other things that are very clear and I think easy.
Some of this you're just gonna have to wrestle with, like, you know, and it's gonna be on a case by case basis sometimes. Because sometimes things get weird or complex really fast.
And that's why we have wisdom. And if we act out of love and wisdom, and if you get it wrong, then you might have to go back to people and say, hey, I went to your thing. I shouldn't have. I'm sorry, here's why I believe now I shouldn't have gone to your thing. And you may have to do that too, if you realize, oh man, I really screwed up.
I was trying to be loving, but really what I did was give consent to something that was wicked or sinful or bad or whatever.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: So I have a. I wrote a rite of in of the enrollment of the friends of the bride and Groom, a short liturgy for the friends of the bride and the groom before the wedding. And it kind of goes on the, like the rite of sponsors for baptism. Do you commit to pray for the child as it sees me there raised in the faith. So I did this for the friends of the Bride and the groom. But it's a long one and I use it, you might be interested, I use it in the rehearsal before we rehearse anything. I stand everybody up there and I say, all right, I'm going to enroll you as friends of this bride. And you ladies, you're friends of the bride. You guys are friends of the groom. And so it starts out with, I'll show you how this goes.
This might be interesting. This is a pretty specific application. Whoops.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: So it starts out with the scriptures, the friends of the bride and groom.
And then the promises to the groom. I say, are these the men that you've chosen?
And they always have fun. They look them up and down. Yeah, yeah. To the bride. Are these the women? And then I say to the friends of the bride and groom, what God has joined together, let no one separate. Do you believe that in the solemnity of the marriage rite about to occur and through the power of God's word, God himself will join this man to his bride and make the two into one? So do you confess what's happening in marriage? Are you ready to stand as witnesses to hear the vows and promises? Will you hold the bride and bridegroom to account to their entire lives? Will you turn their hearts and minds, their strength and joy always towards home? I will. With the help of God. Will you pray for the bride and groom for their home and family? I will. Then are you ready for the joy of the wedding day? Are you ready for the joy of God making two, one? Are you ready for the joy of feasting and dancing, of promise and family? Are you ready for the joy of the Garden of Eden, for the foretaste of the marriage feast of the Lamb? I'm ready. And then the friends of the bride and groom. You are friends of the bride and the groom. They're officially enrolled. Then the friends of the groom turn to the groom and say, give him this charge. Husband, love your wife as Christ loves the church and gave himself up for her. Go forth to meet your bride in the name of the Lord. And then the friends of the bride, speak this to the bride. Let your adornment be the hidden person of the heart, the incorruptible beauty of the gentle and quiet spirit. And then I pray for the friends of the bride and groom. Then the friends of the bride and groom pray this for the bride and groom. This prayer.
Make this man a good husband, a wise man, a courageous protector, faithful priest in his home. Make this bride a good wife, wise and compassionate woman, faithful bride. And then the bride and groom pray for their friends. And then they pray the Lord's Prayer. Then we have a blessing so and so. And this is my way of saying, let's make this an official thing, what you're doing here, a sanctified thing and not an accidental thing.
[00:51:22] Speaker B: So anyway, yeah, that's nice. We'll have to put the link to that in the comments of the video or in the description, I guess.
All right, I think we're on to our last question.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: I like this one because I think it is something that.
[00:51:40] Speaker B: Lutherans struggle with or struggle explaining perhaps sometimes to others.
I read recently that we Lutherans repent daily as though we don't trust that all our sin was forgiven on the cross once and for all. I know there's an answer, but it has eluded me also. Why do we need the sacrament so often if we are forgiven already?
[00:51:56] Speaker A: This. Yeah.
Yes.
It seems like the.
[00:52:04] Speaker A: Place of this question, this question comes from a pious place of.
[00:52:11] Speaker A: That the solas of the, like the Reformation, that were saved by grace through faith, that they are understood in sort of a reductionistic way. So.
So the way that we get salvation by grace, apart from works, is just by kind of stripping away everything so that all that's left is the sign of, like, simple faith in Christ. It's kind of a. I don't know, it's a reductionistic theological approach that then says, well, if I'm forgiven, then why do I need more forgiveness?
In other words, that question, I think, kind of comes to life if we're. If we see grace alone.
[00:52:50] Speaker A: In those reductionistic terms. So I think the way that I'd like to. What I'd like to suggest is that this is simply who the Lord is. That he's always gracious, he's always merciful, he's always more willing to forgive and to let his mercy shine upon us and be gracious to us.
He is so that our life is this life. It's not just daily repentance, which is a turning away from our sin, but whenever we turn to the Lord, we find him forgiving our sins. Whenever we turn our attention to the Lord, we find him being gracious to us. And so it's this kind of pressed down, overflowing into the lamp, abundance of mercy.
That is what it means to be a Christian.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: I'm kind of paraphrasing a different way of saying this, but.
And I think we've discussed it before, but it's kind of like the saying, I was forgiven, I am being forgiven and I will be forgiven. Right? Like we're living in this constant state of we are saint and sinner and we do sin and need repentance and faith to keep receiving God's gifts, right? Faith, belief is always a present tense thing. It's so I can be like, well, I was forgiven, you know, 10 years ago, but if I quit believing tomorrow, then I'm rejecting forgiveness, right? I'm rejecting God's gifts. And so we keep receiving God's gifts. It keeps us connected to Christ and his forgiveness. Like, we can't ever get outside of that. It reminds me of. It almost sounds like maybe the people are listening to are people who say, why do you Lutherans keep talking about forgiveness so much when, like, move on to other things, right?
Rather than seeing that, well, I. Because I still need forgiveness. Because to be Christian is to be one who's receiving Christ and his gifts, which includes the forgiveness of sins. It's like Luther says, right, in the small colored articles, that God is so overabundantly generous that he gives forgiveness, like, in all these different ways, because we continually need to receive forgiveness of sins because we keep on sinning. So it's not a rejection of what Christ did on the cross or that we think somehow our baptism wasn't good enough or something. It's like we've said many times, every time you repent, what are you doing? You're returning to the promise made in your baptism.
It's not like you're getting.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: Something you don't need.
It's just keeping you connected to the very thing you need, which is Christ. And so I think, like you said, it's trying to reduce it down to, like, this simple, overly simplistic view of the Christian life that, well, I was forgiven back here, so now I don't need forgiveness anymore. Like, now I'm set. I got it. I got forgiveness 10 years ago. I don't need to look back at that. I'm just going to go on with my life and don't have to worry about that anymore, rather than, no, I still sin daily, right? I need forgiveness daily, which is why we pray the Lord's Prayer. Pray in the Lord's Prayer, right? Forgive us our trespasses. We pray that daily because we need that forgiveness daily. So it does seem to be a confusion of, well, if I'm forgiven 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago, then I don't ever need it again. Versus a view of the Christian life that says, no, I need Christ daily and all of his gifts and forgiveness, and I can't ever get away from it or outgrow it or get beyond it.
[00:56:07] Speaker A: It's like the old German farmer.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: Whose wife said, do you still love me? And he said, yeah, of course. Why do you ask? And she said, well, you haven't told me that you loved me in 33 years. And he says, well, I told you on our wedding day, and I'll let you know if anything ever changes.
[00:56:28] Speaker A: It's like you don't. It's not like saying that you love your spouse is not. It's, you know, this is a. This is a regular sort of thing. Or maybe the other picture that we could have is like Jesus. When Jesus washes his disciples feet and Peter says, wash all of me, he says, look, you're clean already. Just the feet need to wash. It's like the conscience in some ways is like that. It gets dirty and sometimes it needs a bath and sometimes you just need to wash your hands and sometimes you need to, you know, to have heart surgery or whatever, you know, so the, so that the Lord is always, always cleansing and washing and giving us a clean conscience.
[00:57:04] Speaker A: All throughout our lives. And it's just because it's what, it's what he does. It's what, it's how he acts. It's merciful to us. All right, Pastor Packer, great questions today and thanks to everyone who sent them in Wolfmuller co contact. You can keep those questions coming, keep them flowing.
If you have any deep theological concerns, those go to Packer.
[00:57:33] Speaker A: Good Shepherd.
Ah, you can put them there too. That's great. Thanks, Pastor Packer. God's peace be with you.
