Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, welcome YouTube theologians to the Q A podcast. Pastor Brian Wolfmey here, pastor of St. Paul and Jesus deaf Lutheran churches, with.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Pastor Andrew Packer, senior pastor, good Shepherd.
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Lutheran Church, Collinsville, Illinois. That's a new deal.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: I heard a rumor, Pastor packer, that.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: You are the senior pastor.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: No, that's correct.
[00:00:17] Speaker C: But you did that one last week.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Oh, I heard a rumor that the fossil that you have on your shelf behind you over your right shoulder is indication. It's symbols that you actually don't believe in the days of a. That you believe in evolution.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Is that true? What is that thing?
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Do you see what I'm looking at?
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Fossil. Are you talking about the rock?
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that rock. The fossil.
[00:00:38] Speaker C: It's an evolution. It's a painting of St. Ephraim the Syrian on a piece of stone. So it's not a fossil at all.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: I wonder what that rumor.
[00:00:46] Speaker C: Sorry to disappoint.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: If you listeners have rumors about St. Ephraim and what it symbolizes, the conspiracy theories, let them begin. All right, we got some questions. Let's have them, Pastor Pack.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: All right, the first one's on baptism.
I've heard a lot on Jesus'baptism by John, that it revealed God's promise to John, that it revealed to the world that he was the messiah, that it was an act of obedience to God's purpose, that it was an affirmation of the importance of baptism. I've always generally thought of it as mainly the announcement and revelation of the arrival of Jesus as the messiah. One thing I heard recently is that Jesus took on the sins of the world when he was baptized. And it was through this that he was able to destroy sin in his death and resurrection. I've looked for the references to this idea of taking on the sins of the world in scripture. I'm a poor theologian. I've discussed it with my elders at my church. We haven't found it. Can you weigh on this? What did Jesus baptism accomplish?
[00:01:41] Speaker B: That's a great question.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: So remember, when Jesus comes to be baptized by John, John already knows who Jesus is because he says, you don't need to be baptized by me, I need to be baptized by you. And the reason is because John is baptizing for the forgiveness of sins. And John is able to recognize that Jesus doesn't need the forgiveness of sins. But then he says, let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fill up. Righteousness is how Jesus says it. So he was baptized and he comes up out of the water and the Holy Spirit comes down upon him. The main thing that we want to.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Confess about the baptism of Jesus, and I think this is, you can find.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: This in the ancient church, the old Church Fathers.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: It's somehow missed today. Well, you tell me if you think it's missed, is that Jesus'baptism is his ordination.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: It's when he is put into the office of messiah. Remember that the word messiah means anointed one.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Or Christ is the greek word christos. It means the anointed one.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: And so it's when the Holy Spirit.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Descends upon Jesus at his baptism that.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: The promise of psalm 45 six and seven is fulfilled. You, I will anoint you with the oil of gladness above all your fellows.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: That you will bear the spirit without.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Measure, the sevenfold spirit, the prophecies from the suffering servant, and the end of Isaiah. All these promises are fulfilled so that.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Jesus goes into the water as Jesus.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: And he comes out of the water.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: As Jesus the Christ.
It's when he's put into the office.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Just like a pastor, when he's ordained.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Goes into the service as Andrew, and comes out of the service as pastor Packer.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: Or when a man goes into the wedding service as man, and he comes out as husband. The ordination puts you into the service, puts you into the office. And it's so that that is when.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Jesus enters into the office of the Christ.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: And that's why Alfred Edtersheim makes this point, I think, beautifully when Jesus is overturning the temple. And they say, by whose authority?
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Jesus says, by whose authority was baptism?
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Because he said, the authority that I.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Get is from the prophet John, who.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Anointed me into the office. It's not a disconnected thing. Remember, they don't want to answer, because.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: If they say John was just a made up Guy, everyone would get, because.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: They all believed in John. But if they said John was a prophet, that would actually give Jesus the authority of the Messiah, the one who.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Can overthrow the sellers in the temple and everything.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: So Jesus was always going to be.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: The Messiah, but he doesn't enter into.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: That work until he's 30 years old and he comes to the river Jordan to be anointed and set apart for the work.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Now, that work includes the work of bearing the sins of the world.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: So the office of Messiah is the.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: Office of sin bearer. And it's important for us to note that this office is unique.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: There's no one else who has this office. There's no one else who is the lamb of God who takes away the.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: Sin of the world.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: But that's what John points out. When Jesus comes back from his temptation.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: And he comes back to the Jordan.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: River to pick up a couple of John's disciples. And he says, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, that the messiah is the.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: One who will bear the world's sins.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: So I wouldn't say that in his baptism, Jesus takes upon himself the sins of the world, but in his baptism, Jesus takes upon himself the office of.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Sin bearer, and that that is accomplished when he dies on the cross. Now we can by, I think by.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Analogy or by adornment, we can talk.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: About how Jesus starts to gather up.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: All the sins of all the sinners. I preach about that all the time in Jesus'baptism. It has to do with that little phrase that we have from Luther's baptismal prayer, that in his baptism in the Jordan river, he sanctified and cleansed all waters to be a washing away of sin. In other words, Jesus is cleansing the water, he's cleansing the world. Even as he touches sinners, every time he touches a leper, we realize that he's taking on that uncleanness. When he reaches out his hands and touches a dead man, he's taking on that uncleanness. So we see, beginning in his baptism and all through his ministry, that Jesus.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Is the one who's gathering up. He's the sinless son of God who's.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Gathering up the sins of the world on himself. But that most especially happens during the 3 hours of darkness on the cross, and that culminates in his prayer.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
[00:06:17] Speaker A: So those 3 hours of darkness.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: If.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: You wanted to put a wind as Jesus become sin and suffer the wrath.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Of God for us, that would be the kind of technical time that you would put brackets around, but that also.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Was always going to happen. And so.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: In his baptism, Jesus is pointed to the cross.
It's the first step on the way that ends at standing in front of pilate and being hung on Golgotha and being laid in the tomb, so that it's all of a piece. But that's the main thing.
I do think you're right.
[00:07:00] Speaker C: I don't think we discuss, at least I don't see it discussed much, that kind of the idea of that being the beginning of his public ministry, which means he's entering into the office, like beginning to do the work of that office in a way that he hadn't previously. I'm trying to think of anywhere where I've seen that anytime recently, and anyone outside of church, fathers and I can't really think of anyone besides you mentioning it right now.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: It has to do also with what we talked about with charismatic gifts last time and this whole kind of confusion of office, because the Holy Spirit comes different times and in different ways connected to the office and the ordering of things.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: And so Jesus has to be ordained.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: And it has to be a prophet to do it. I mean, there's this big gap of prophets until John the Baptist, the last of the prophets, because the prophets are the ones who anoint the kings and the priests. And so the Lord has to raise.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Up a prophet to prepare the way.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: For the messiah to come because he has to be anointed by a prophet. I mean, he doesn't have to, I guess, but in the Lord's arranging of things, that's how it's going to be.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: And that's why the prophets even point to the last prophet, John the Baptist.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Who comes in the office of Elijah.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: To do this anointing, to set apart Christ for his work.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: This understanding of office is so important.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: For a right understanding of the scriptures. But.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: I think it's like this charismatic.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Influence that we see all of this as kind of, as chaos.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: So think of it this way, too. Like, you have a child who's born the oldest son of the king, and you know that he's going to be the king, but he doesn't become the.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: King until he's coronated.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: So the coronation marks the moment that.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: The king becomes king.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: So his baptism marks the moment that Christ becomes Christ.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: Do you think, with that understanding? So if you look at, like in the Old Testament, you have Elijah, what does Elisha ask him to do? Give me a double portion of your spirit.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: And we use that text on Pentecost.
[00:09:10] Speaker C: With Jesus ascending and saying the spirit.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: To the apostles, which is, I think.
[00:09:14] Speaker C: A right application of it, too, of that picture. But it also seems like that is also a picture of what happens, right? If he's the Elijah in the picture, John the Baptist, that means Jesus is Elisha, who gets the better portion.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: Right?
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Elisha got the better portion. He did greater things than Elijah because he asked for it. So you have, I think, part of that going on there, too. It's Gerhardt who says that where Jesus is baptized is where the Israelites cross the Jordan river to enter into the promised land. So, I mean, there's a whole lot of biblical imagery going on being fulfilled in that moment from the whole Old Testament that's coming down. Know whether it's the flood, whether it's Israelites crossing the Red Sea, Elijah, Elisha, there's all kinds of stuff going into the promised land. It's all coming to fruition as Jesus is baptized and enters into that office.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: In that way, it's not only the same place that they crossed over into the promised land. It's also the same place where Elijah, right before his ascension, crosses the Jordan river and then ascends up in the chariot. So all three of those events, so Elijah's ascension, the Israel's crossing and the baptism of Jesus are all happening at the precise same place, Bethany, beyond the.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Jordan and this tiny little tributary that.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Goes right into the Jordan river just north of the Dead Sea, which connects all those things as well. So it is this crossing over and.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Jesus'baptism is different than our baptism in.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: That our baptism is a washing away of sins. Jesus, remember, doesn't need that kind of baptism. He needs another baptism.
But our baptism has strength because of.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: His baptism, because of his office, because.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Of his work, because of his death and resurrection, because of his being the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. We are the world whose sin is taken away. So we are the recipients of the work that Christ does in baptism, so that we can say the same thing that happens in the baptism of Jesus happens in ours. God looks at us and says, you are my son, in whom I'm well pleased. We're not his only begotten son, but we are adopted as his children.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Behold what manner of love the Father.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Has given unto us, that we should be called the children of God.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: And we are his children, as John teaches us to confess, so that the.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Baptism of Jesus opens heaven for us and we receive that gift in our own baptism.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: It's not by accident either that the.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Most trinitarian passages in all of the holy scriptures are connected to baptism. I mean, Jesus baptism himself, when the.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Holy Spirit descends like a dove and.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: When the voice of God comes from heaven. And then in the institution of baptism.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: When Jesus says, go and baptize all.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Holy Spirit, so that the two most clear passages that show Father, Son and.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Holy Spirit are connected to baptism. Because.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: In the gift of baptism, we're adopted into that holy family. So beautiful.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: I mean, I say because that's one reason. There's lots of reasons. But we're invited into this holy.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: Into the holiness of God and adopted into his family so that we're co heirs with Christ. It's pretty amazing.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: It's like everything else when we talk about Jesus he's not baptized because he needs it, but because we need him to be baptized, to be all of that for us. The picture I always use with the baptism of Jesus is if you picture everyone else going into the water and their sins are being washed away and like, polluting and fouling the water, Jesus steps in and almost like a sponge soaks it up so that the water is now cleansed. As you were saying earlier, and I agree with what you said, that we don't have necessarily take that to mean that now he's fully bearing the weight of sin in the way he does on the cross. But when you understand it connected to his office, that he is taking his place as the sin bearer, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, then you can at least talk about it that way and see the connection to everything else he does. Because none of it's. I don't know, maybe it's because we want precise moments and things for everything.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: But if we look at the whole.
[00:13:35] Speaker C: Of Jesus'life like right from the moment he's circumcised, he's fulfilling the law for right.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: He fulfills the law for us, even.
[00:13:41] Speaker C: Though he doesn't have to. He's doing all these things as the sin bearer all along the way and trying to put precise exactly what is going on in that moment. I don't know if it's for us to fully understand, but we can see it's because of his office as sinbearer, as the messiah, that he's doing all of these things in our place, in our stead that we might be saved. And as you said, I always use that as an example of what happens at your baptism. The heavens are ripped open, but you can't see it. The spirit descends. You can't see it. And God speaks and says, this is my beloved child. It's a glorious thing when you compare Jesus'baptism to our own and all that it teaches us.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: No, that's beautiful. And this idea of spirit and office being together is so important. I have it, a passage, but to set it up here.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Remember the joke of the kid and.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: His father at the pastor's ordination? I tell this joke, I probably told it last week, too. You got to tell me to stop telling this joke. So all the pastors lay hands on.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: The guy at his ordination, and they're.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Praying for the Holy Spirit. And the kid leans over to his.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Dad and says, we should have got.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: A pastor who had the spirit.
Well, no, he had the spirit already, but the spirit comes with the office. With the office. So now the spirit comes for the work of preaching the gospel, just like the pastor lays his hands on the husband and wife at their wedding. May God bless you. Now the spirit comes for the office of husband and wife with a confirmation. The spirit comes for the office of being a communicant member of the church, of being a public confessor of the come.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: So that's why in the old liturgy.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: The pastor would say, the Lord be with you. And the congregation says, and with your spirit.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: That means with your office and with you as our pastor. So you do the pastor thing.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: That's the understanding. And that Jesus is the one who bears the spirit in full measure is a really important part of the biblical doctrine of the Christ.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: I mean, that's what it means when we say Christ.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: We should remember Christ is an office messiah, and it means spirit bearer.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: So I'm looking at when Jesus stands.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: Up in Nazareth, this is Luke four, verse 18. And he quotes Isaiah 61. The spirit of the Lord is upon me because he anointed me. He messiahed me.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: He christed me to preach the gospel.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: To the poor and sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recover to the blind.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: So that all of these passages that talk about the messiah talk about the one who bears the spirit.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: And that's when Jesus is given. It's not like he didn't have the spirit before his baptism, but that's when.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: He'S given the spirit or put in the office.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: It's the same thing.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: And that's when his work begins.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: And when we're baptized, we're given the spirit for the office of being a.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Christian, a believer in Jesus.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: I mean, that's the work that is.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: The office that we're put into in our own baptism.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Do you think we've lost part of that understanding of what it means to be the Christ because we use it kind of like his last name? So we say Jesus Christ rather than really it's Jesus the Christ, Jesus the messiah, the anointed one. Like it's his title, his office. But we use it so often as.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Shorthand that it comes across as if.
[00:17:02] Speaker C: It'S his last name.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:03] Speaker C: Like Andrew Packer, Brian Wolfmiller, Jesus Christ. And we just categorize it that way. And we don't stop to think, no, what it's saying is much more than that. It's saying he is the Christ, the messiah. He is the anointed one. And that is an office God has put him in as our prophet priest, and king. And that's different than just his last name, right? His last name would be what? Son of Joseph, I guess.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Or of Nazareth or whatever.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Or of not. Not Christ. So perhaps that's where some of that comes from.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: So we say, when does Jesus become Jesus Christ? And the answer is when he comes.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Up out of the water of the.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: That's the big thing.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: And it's pretty simple.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Right. But I'd love to hear from people in the comments, if you've ever heard.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: That preached before, because it is a kind of.
I don't know.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: For me now, it's an obvious thing, but I've been thinking about it for a long time. But I don't think it's a common thing that we consider.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Isn't that too, like psalm two? You mentioned psalm 45, but psalm two.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: You are my son.
[00:18:07] Speaker C: Today I've begotten you. It's not talking about him being begotten from eternity past. That was used at coronations.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:13] Speaker C: As far as we understand, we think psalm two was used when the nations are raging against the Lord and against his anointed. But he says, it's okay.
I've begotten you as my son. You're into your office, and so now all the kings of the earth have to kiss you and worship you because you're the true ruler and king, because you've stepped into this office to this role, which is what was used at ancient israelite kings. I was going to say ordinations, but installations as well.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: I don't know about that use.
I tend to think of psalm two as the eternal begottenness because it has this, today I have begotten you. So it's this mix of now and then. It's this kind of awkward grammar pointing to the fact that there's an eternal begottenness.
But if you were to point to it as a today, like, you were not begotten, and now you are. That's the idea.
Yesterday you were not Jesus Christ, you.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Were just Jesus of Nazareth, but today you're Jesus, the anointed one.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: And that's exactly what happens at his baptism.
[00:19:20] Speaker C: Are you ready for the next question?
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
It's related because you actually said this.
[00:19:26] Speaker C: Talking about baptism, that on the cross.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: Is when it's darkness, we can really.
[00:19:32] Speaker C: Say Jesus became sin. So the question that was sent in was, what does it mean that Jesus became sin? He was is sinless. So how did he become sin? What do we mean? And that comes right off. Two Corinthians 521. So what do we mean when we use that language? What did Paul mean when he talked that way?
[00:19:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Let me read the text here. This is so good. Let's see. Two Corinthians 518 will start now. All things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we're ambassadors for Christ. As though God were pleading through us, we implore you on Christ's behalf be reconciled to God. For he made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
He made him who knew no sin to be sin.
Literally. In fact, the to be is not even there. So he made him who knew no sin, sin for us.
Noun sin. He made him sin. Now, the key is to understand the language of imputation from back in verse 19. Not imputing their trespasses to them so.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: That you can sin.
You do sin. Probably I do too, at least a while back. I think I did.
[00:21:14] Speaker C: Yesterday, maybe once.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: A couple of weeks ago.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: I don't know. You have to ask Carrie when the last.
We're sorry.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: YouTube. We were having a funny conversation about my repenting ishness before we came on, which.
[00:21:29] Speaker C: Oh, man.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: So anyhow, so we're sinners. But the question is, is the sin imputed to us?
[00:21:39] Speaker B: Is it put to us or is it put to someone else?
[00:21:42] Speaker A: So God can take one PerSoN's sin.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: And impute it to somebody else.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: And this is the whole doctrine of the sacrifice.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: When in the old testament, the Israelites would bring a lamb that didn't do.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Anything wrong and see it burning in the place of themselves who are the transgressors. Then they see that the Lord can.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: Impute guilt and pour out his wrath.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: On another instead of on the one who accomplished the sin.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: So that to accomplish the sin is.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: One thing, but to have the sin imputed to you, that's to have the punishment that you deserve visited on you. And the Lord can in his justice, pour out his wrath on another.
Now, we would say, now, well, that's not fair.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Like if I broke in and know.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: One of the crucifixes from Pastor Packer's wall, and then someone else has to pay the fine for it, we'd say, well, that's not just and true enough, it's not just.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: But the Lord says, I'm going to.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Pour out my wrath for your sin.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: On my own son, on myself.
I'm going to suffer what you deserve.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: So that I can impute to you my righteousness and holiness and peace.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: So the Lord is a sinner not by committing sin, but by imputation.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: So our guilt, our shame.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Our transgression, our breaking of God's law is imputed to Christ, and in that way, he becomes a sinner, and he does it.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: So that his righteousness can be imputed to us.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: It says it like this.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: He made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. So he is a sinner by imputation.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: And we are holy and perfect by imputation.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: That's the doctrine of the great exchange. This is how the LuTHeran fathers would talk about it. He takes our sin and death and the wrath that we deserve. He takes that in our place, and we get his perfection and holiness and love.
[00:24:01] Speaker C: It's one of the most comforting. It's one of my favorite verses. My daughter tried to get that, I think, for her class, 8th grade class verse. They have a banner that they do for the graduating class. And she tried to get them to vote for that, but she lost.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: And I told her, well, it was.
[00:24:17] Speaker C: A good choice because it's one of my favorite verses. I mean, it's just one of the most clearest and beautiful summaries of the entire gospel. As you just explained it in all of scripture, just in one verse, he became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Doesn't get better than that. That's just a beautiful, wonderful thing. I think the language of become right is what trips people up. But as you said, it's not talking about him, like, becoming this thing we call sin, but his bearing our sin for us in our place, our sin, our guilt, our shame, all of it, so that we might become righteous in him.
Are you up for another one, or do you want to.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: So this comes. I want to reference this, an article that I wrote back in 2019 answering. So there's some quotes from Luther that the Catholics will always use against us.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: That Jesus became an adulterer.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: So the Catholics will always say, you.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Lutherans teach that Jesus committed sin, that Luther teaches that.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: So I have a whole kind of article that kind of walks through this whole thing. But here's the quote. Christ was an adulterer for the first.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Time with a woman at the well.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: For as said, nobody knows what he's doing with her.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: John four again, he was an adulterer.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: With Mary Magdalene, and still again with the adulterous woman in John eight, whom.
[00:25:47] Speaker B: He let off so easily. So the good Christ had to become an adulterer before he died.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: So the Catholic Church uses that to.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: Say that Luther taught that Jesus was committed the sin of adultery. I've got a long, kind of hour.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Long takedown of it, but this is obviously not the case.
First of all, Luther talks about adultery in the most clearest of terms, that we do not commit adultery.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: He also talks about the perfection of.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Jesus in the clearest of terms. Christ felt this temptation, for he was not stock or stone, although he was.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: And remained pure and without sin, as we cannot do.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Or here again, Luther, Christ is entirely.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Without sin, and the head of the righteous, who owe no debt to the.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: Law and at all, needs no instruction.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: For what he should do.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Or again, Luther says he was completely.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Pure and without sin, yet he humbled himself so deeply.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: I mean, this is kind of the clear teaching. So what's going on? What Luther's talking about is that when.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Jesus let himself be alone with a woman, he opened himself up to the accusation of adultery. That's the first thing.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: But then, even more than that, that.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Jesus, in all of his interactions, is becoming the bearer of the world's sin. So here's a beautiful quote from Galatians.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: All the prophets saw this, that Christ.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Was to become the greatest thief, murderer, adulterer, robber, desecrator, blasphemer, etc. There has ever been anywhere in the world. He's not acting in his own person now.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Now he is the son of God, born of the virgin, but he is.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: A sinner who has and bears the.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Sins of Paul, the former blasphemer, persecutor.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: And assaulter of Peter, who denied Christ.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Of David, who was an adulterer and murderer, and who caused the Gentiles to.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: Blaspheme the name of the Lord.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: In short, he, Jesus, has and bears all the sins of all men in.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: His body, not in the sense that he's committed them, but in the sense that he took those sins committed by us upon his own body in order to make satisfaction for them with his own blood. And that's exactly what Paul is talking about in this.
[00:28:05] Speaker C: And that distinction you made is the key distinction, has and bears versus committed. And that's where I think people start to think about it incorrectly if they start to say Jesus committed those sins. No, that's not the same thing as him burying those sins in his office as messiah to die and pay for our sins. As long as we keep those two things distinct. The language is very helpful from Paul and from Luther. We just have to keep those two things separate in our minds so we don't get tripped up.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: I'll put the link to this article below.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: You guys can go check it out.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Want to close with an easy one?
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:46] Speaker C: Can you walk us through the love that the Father, son, Holy Spirit have for each other? I've been thinking about God first loved us. Yes, true. But could we say that God loved each other before creation?
[00:28:55] Speaker B: And maybe perhaps we could word that.
[00:28:57] Speaker C: By saying, does each person of the Trinity have love for the other members of the Godhead? Right.
Is that how that works? How would you understand that?
[00:29:09] Speaker A: We know from James. This is a great mystery. I mean, the doctrine of the Trinity is already a great mystery. And what it looks like that there is, as far as we can tell, that love always has to have an.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Object, so that love is that.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Outside towards something else. And what's really interesting is that in God's eternal existence, when there was only God, we say, well, can there be love? Because there is nothing outside of God. But the doctrine of the Trinity says that in the three persons. Sometimes called this the economic.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Is that what we call it, the.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Economic Trinity, that in the three persons of the Trinity there is love from the father to the son and spirit, and from the son to the father and spirit, and from the spirit to the father and the son.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: So that the triunity of God means that he can be love.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: It's one of the points that christians.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Apologists have made against Islam and kind.
[00:30:05] Speaker A: Of modern Judaism, synagogue Judaism, which rejects.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: The doctrine of the Trinity, this radical monotheism which says that in the simplicity.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: Of God, it denies the three persons, so that there cannot be love unless there's something to love.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: And so Allah cannot be love, it can't be his essence. It's an accident that depends on there being something else, like creation. Whereas we say, no, it's essential because there is a distinction within the unity of the Godhead. So I don't know if that's a simple question, Pastor Packer, but I do.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: Think that there's a. Well, maybe the simple answer is yes, absolutely.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: God is love, and his love is seen.
His love is before the foundation of the world, for the son, for the spirit, et cetera. Maybe I should have rephrased it.
[00:30:58] Speaker C: Not necessarily simple in us grasping it, but simple to answer. Yes, there is love among the three persons of the Trinity from all eternity.
I was teaching on the training last night, at the adult instruction class here, and we had going over the first commandment, and I was explaining that one God, three persons, three persons, one God.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: And I said, look, the best explanation.
[00:31:21] Speaker C: Of this is the athenation creed. We'll talk a little bit more about that when we get to the creeds, but you can read the athenation creed, and it's a beautiful, glorious summary. And even after you read it, you just have to say yes and amen. I still don't fully understand the trinity. I don't understand how this can be. But we just have to bow before it and marvel that our God really is love. And there's been love among the members of the Trinity for all eternity. And we can rest in that and delight in that and take comfort and joy in that, even if we can't fully comprehend how it can be.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: So what would your best verse be?
[00:31:54] Speaker A: For the eternal love of the father and the son?
[00:32:00] Speaker B: For the eternal love?
[00:32:03] Speaker C: It's a good question.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: I'm just thinking about that, too.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: I'd have to think more about that for one verse that summarizes it really well.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to have to think.
[00:32:13] Speaker C: About that a little longer. I don't know if I could answer it right on the spot.
[00:32:17] Speaker B: Right now you put me on the.
[00:32:19] Speaker C: Spot and I can't come up with a verse off top of my head.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: Well, we should ask Google.
[00:32:24] Speaker C: Well, thanks for the questions.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
How'd you know how I was getting all these other answers here? Thanks for the sending in the questions. Pastor Packer says there's been not as many questions the last few days, which means either the thing that forward your.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Questions is busted, most likely, or you.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Guys have had it all settled. But if you have questions, you can post them on the comments below.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: We'd love to hear your feedback on that.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: And you can send them to Wolfmiller Co. Contact so Wolfmiller Wolfmueller Co. There's a contact button there so you can send all your questions in that way. And while you're hanging around the website, check out that article about Luther and Christ becoming sin. Also check out the singles cruise. I think we're up to 90 applications. I think we have 60 people signed.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Up for our singles cruise in August.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: August 1 to fifth lutheran singles aged.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: 21 to 41 should be a lot of fun.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: I think we'll probably have.
[00:33:22] Speaker C: Do you need more guys or girls?
[00:33:24] Speaker B: Right now we are 50 50. Oh, nice.
[00:33:26] Speaker A: I shouldn't say.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: I think we are currently two. So four.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: There's four more women than men.
[00:33:34] Speaker C: It's like, all right, guys, we need.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: At least four more men, 52% to 48%. The problem is, I think the last six guys, the last six people that applied were guys. Um, so it got us really close to then 50%. And I wonder if the ladies were like, they're on top of it and they apply right on time and the guys are kind of, oh, I forgot to do that. I don't know if that's what seems like that might be the thing, but I got some guys from the seminary coming. Got a handful of young, single lutheran pastors coming.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: That'll be good.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: So I got to get the deaconess on board. So I figure we'll have maybe 150 people. So it should be great. A great fun time. So sign up. I'll put the info in the link below as that as well. So thanks for questions. Thanks Pastor Packer, for leading us through them. And God's peace be with.
