Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians, I'm Pastor Wolfmuller, St. Paul and Jesus. Stephen Austin, here with Pastor Packer, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, I heard a rumor about you that your members are scandalized by all the rumors that are breaking about you.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: It's true. Sometimes, sometimes they come up in weird and strange places and they hear people coming up to me and say, I hear a rumor about you.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: It was what happened. Oh, so that's actually not a rumor. That's great. We've been off for a while.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: That's real.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: We're back at it. The Q and A podcast. Thanks for all the YouTube theologians out there, your patience with us and thanks for sending all the.
Thanks for sending in all these questions. I think we're 198 questions behind, so if you want to keep those lined up. Wolfmuller co contact.
Keep them coming. What do you got for us?
[00:00:50] Speaker B: The first one we've got is about the disciples receiving the Holy Ghost.
When did disciples receive the Holy Ghost? In John 20, Jesus says, Receive ye the Holy Ghost as he breathes on them, which indicates it happened on Easter Sunday. But in Acts 1 he says, but ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you. Speaking of Pentecost. And in Acts 2 we see this happen. The seeming contradiction has had me confused for some time, and I hope you could give me an explanation. All the best and thank you in advance.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: I appreciate how he quoted from the King James, so we don't have to worry about copyright. This is really helpful.
It's good for. This is a great question, and the only biblically tenable answer, I think, is that the Holy Ghost comes upon not only the disciples, but also us often. It's not just a one time event.
So the Holy Spirit is.
Every Christian has the Holy Spirit by baptism, by faith. It's impossible, says St. Paul, to say Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit is busy creating faith, but the Holy Spirit will also come upon us for various and distinct different callings that the Lord gives to us. So this, this is the old joke of the ordination. Do you remember this joke? The guy, the pastor was up there getting ordained and all the pastors came to lay their hands on him. And the kid was with his dad in the back row and he said, he said, dad, what are they doing?
And the dad said, this is where they're giving him the Holy Spirit. And the kid says, we should have got a pastor who had the Holy Spirit already.
Well, okay, hopefully he had the Holy Spirit. Already as a Christian, but now the Holy Spirit comes upon the pastor for the work of the office.
This is what Paul talks about to Timothy, the gift that was given to you by the laying on of hands.
The same thing when we lay hands on a confirmand that they are entering into the office of public confessor. We we trust that they had the Holy Spirit by their baptism. But now for this particular vocation, I even think that when we lay our hands on the married couple to give them the blessing that God gave to Adam and Eve in the garden, that this is giving them the Holy Spirit for their vocation as husband and wife. Whenever we set someone apart and lay hands on them setting up, so the Holy Spirit comes upon them for that office.
So the Holy Spirit. And we pray constantly for the Holy Spirit to fill us.
Jesus says this in response or in reflection of after his teaching of the Lord's prayer in Luke 11 he says, so your father will give the Spirit to all who ask.
So even though we have the Holy Spirit, we're constantly praying for the Holy Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit comes in Acts 20 specifically for the office of absolution. Whoever sins you forgive, they're forgiven. And then the Holy Spirit comes in Acts 2 to set apart the apostles really as apostles and preachers, so you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and all the world so that the Holy Spirit comes upon them for that office of public proclamation.
And that's what we see in the book of Acts. Whenever the Spirit comes upon people, they begin to preach, even sometimes in languages they don't know. So the Spirit is especially connected to the office.
So I think that's the only way to answer it really is you have the constant gift of the Holy Spirit in different ways. Thoughts about that.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Do you think this would. It seems like we get accused as Lutherans just not talking about the Holy Spirit enough or not paying attention to the Holy Spirit. And sometimes we just say, well, we talk about Jesus, the Spirit's pointed to Jesus. But it seems like the categories you're giving here might be helpful for us and maybe fleshing it out more fully that that the Spirit does come to us in different ways for different offices, vocations, et cetera. Like I was just, I just did a writing notes for numbers, chapter 11, right where the Lord takes from the spirit of Moses and gives it to the 70, but two of the guys aren't there and so then they get the Spirit outside the camp. And I'm using Morales's amazing commentary on numbers. It's like if anyone's out there saying numbers, you should read this commentary. Cuz it's just fantastic. But I was thinking about that in that regard too. Right. Like they were selected for this office of elder and they needed the Spirit to fulfill that office.
Right. They're given the Spirit for that particular task. And even though we don't hear about them very much really after that, like that much doesn't come of it from our perspective. But they were given the Spirit to do that particular office to help Moses in his office.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: And then it moves on. Like in Moses needed that because he said, this burden's too much for me to bear. And the Lord answers and says, well, first thing I'm going to do is get you a bunch of men around you to make sure that you can do your office. And they're going to need the Spirit to help you. So it seems like that's the pattern throughout Scripture is if you're set apart for something, the Lord gives you the Holy Spirit so that you can, you know, the giftings that go with that in a particular way rather than just, yes, as Christians we have the Holy Spirit. So I think that framing of it can be really helpful for people in thinking through these things.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: We see in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit comes upon people and they become craftsmen, or at the time of the Judges, they become these great warriors. Or you see the different gifts that the Holy Spirit gives in the early church, which is beautiful and not everybody has them, but the Lord gives them for the building up of the body of Christ so that the Holy Spirit comes upon us to give us strength and wisdom for the work to which we are appointed.
And this.
So I think you're right. You know, the Lutherans are always accused of not saying enough about the Holy Spirit. I think that that accusation is right, actually.
The reason is because the. We've. It's this trick that the Charismatic church has done where they've. They've kind of set the baseline for the expectation of the Holy Spirit. And the Lutherans are like, that's weird. But it's a trick. The whole thing's a trick. Like even this question, are you a cessationist? I'm not a cessationist. I believe that whatever these gifts that you charismatic crazy teachers are saying, they didn't stop. They never started.
Like you're crazy. Slaying in tongues and being. This is antithetical to the Spirit who. One of the fruits of the Spirit is self control.
And here you are trying to tell me that The Holy Spirit takes away self control. And now as Lutherans, I want to talk about order and self control and vocation.
And all the charismatic talk about the Spirit is anti order, anti self control, anti vocation.
And so now I'm nervous to talk about the Holy Spirit because we've let the Pentecostal Charismatic Church define the terms. They're wrong. From the very get go, when Paul says the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet, that undoes the entire thing of Pentecostalism. It's just all crumbles because the they are saying that the prophet is taken up in this ecstasy by the Holy Spirit. It's completely antithetical to the way the Holy Spirit works. So to connect the work of the Holy Spirit, particularly to order. This is why in the old liturgy the pastor would say, whenever the liturgy is going from congregational to the pastor leading it, he'd say, the Lord be with you. And they'd say, and with your Spirit.
Because it has to do with the office, it has to do with the ordering of things, it has to do with the calling.
This is our spiritual worship, the office of the Word. And so we need to talk so much more about the gifts of the Holy Spirit biblically to win the conversation back from the Pentecostals who for too long have been defining the terms.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: I think especially what you said, you said even the term cessationist. Right.
We've let them frame the entire issue so we use their categories. And so then when you have to talk about, well, am I cessationists or not cessationists? It's like, what do you mean by that? And who's framing the discussion? Because if you say you're a cessationist, what does that mean? You don't believe in. Like we start saying, well, I don't believe in these particular things, gifts of the Holy Spirit. But that's actually usually not what we mean. We just kind of almost like, well, the Holy Spirit is not really doing anything anymore except for saving people. And that's like it. But that's not, that's not how we want to talk about it. And it's not helpful. But it's because we're like you said, things got out of control in one area of Christendom. So we're like, yeah, we don't want to talk that way.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: Afraid friend. In high school, I remember my buddy Bill and I were, I don't know, we probably were skipping class and going over to Walmart and we were checking out and Bill, I saw this happen in real time. He looked at the. He was walking down to checkout, and there was this long line in this one checkout counter. But we get in this line, I'm like, why are we in this line? And then I looked, and there was a cute checkout girl, and he. She caught Bill's eye. Okay, so I know. So we're sitting there in line waiting, and I don't know what we're getting. Candy or something stupid. And.
And Bill steps up to the checkout girl and. And he's just getting ready to start flirting with her. And I, And I asked him, hey, how's that rash doing?
And. And he just looks at me and just sinks and just moves on. You know, you're just. You can't recover from it because the question set, you know what? Like, how are you gonna undo the whole thing?
And that's exactly what happens to the Orthodox Christians or to the Lutherans when someone says, are you a cessationist? She's like, move on. Like, I can't. I can't do anything because you've set up the whole question in such a kind of toxic way.
Anyway, Bill recovered. He's doing great.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: He found love finally.
Let's see.
Let's go to the next question.
All right.
Oh, there's too many nice phrases at the beginning of this. Should I read those?
Says thank you for. I think they mean setting the absolute gold standard in theology. I've been following your channel for years and point others to your channel when the opportunity arises.
Here's the question. So living in the heart of the Bible Belt, it amazes me how much the word symbol is used in conjunction with the indwelling of Christ baptism in the Lord's Supper across the Baptist, Reformed, American evangelical teachings, etc.
To bolster this claim, when you search symbol on a YouVersion app versus like 1st Peter 3, 21, among others, pop up. Furthermore, what is interesting?
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Baptism now saves you.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes.
Furthermore, what is interesting from my discussion with other brothers and sisters in Christ about symbolism is that they don't see this usage as a reduction in the work of Christ and aren't aware of. They're not taking the word for the word. Ultimately, I've attributed this to fallen man and his want and need to control as much as. As much in life as possible.
So what is your biblical definition of a symbol? And how and when in theology do we use a symbol?
[00:11:56] Speaker A: That's a good question. You know, symbol. I. I think the way to understand a symbol.
I. I'd Be interested in your thoughts too, Pastor Pack on this. But it's like a, a banner, right? Like when you go to war, your. The army has a banner that it waves and each division will have its own sort of banner. And that becomes your rally point, something that you can put eyes on and, and go to. So it, a symbol becomes a, a physical rally point for, for people. And so it indicates something else, is there. So the Lutherans will talk about.
When you hear a Lutheran talking about a symbol, they're normally talking about, like the creeds and Confessions. So that apostolic, the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed is a symbol. We're talking about the symbols of the church. That's the Augsburg Confession. It's a rally point. It's a theological rally point where people come together for it. Now, the way that evangelicals use symbol is they want to contrast the sort of outward show with an inward reality. So baptism is a symbol of the internal repentance.
So baptism doesn't really do anything, but it's a. Well, who says this? It's the outward sign of an inward grace. Where does that language come from, by the way? Do you know the origin of that?
[00:13:15] Speaker B: It's Augustine, isn't it?
[00:13:16] Speaker A: The outward sign of an inward grace. So it can't be Augustine, huh? That'd be interesting if it was to the I.
So the, the Baptists want to say, well, look, baptism doesn't forgive your sins. It's a symbol that your sins have been forgiven.
And the Lord's Supper, it's not the body and blood. It's a sign or a symbol or an outward expression of that we're supposed to rally around, to remember.
And, and so they take up. It takes upon a.
It's like this contrast between the reality, the internal spiritual reality and the external sign.
And that's how the language is typically being used, sign or symbol. But I think this idea that it becomes a rally point, hey, this is where the church is. This is where the Spirit is. This is where God is working.
So when we see baptism, when we see the Supper, when we see these things, we know that, that the Lord is at work there and we can rejoice in that.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Is.
I was looking that up for you. And that is St. Augustine.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Outward, invisible sign of an inward and invisible grace.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: It's interesting that the evangelicals would use Augustine on that because.
Excuse me, Augustine was certainly a realist when it came to baptism and the Supper.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting too, because the one verse he mentioned, a symbol on 1st Peter 3, 21. Because what's interesting is the way it's being used in 1st Peter3.21, if they translate it. I wonder if that's. There's a couple of translations. I think that you symbol there instead of an antitype, it says there's a symbol which now saves us.
Um, which is interesting because I think one of. I think it's the Berean Center Bible that says there's a symbol, baptism, which now saves us. So even the way they're using symbol there is not.
Not the way many groups would use it because it's saying that the thing is baptism that now saves you. So even the way they have the verse ordered there would seem to mitigate against understanding it merely usually not doing anything. Right.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's because it's. It says antitype, which would be. So that. So you have the type and the antitype. And it seems like if you wanted. The symbol would be the type and the antitype is the reality of the thing. The thing that's being pointed to. So the. The symbol would be. If you were translating it that way, the symbol would be the. The ark and the slide.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: And the. And the anti. Symbol would be baptism. That's the real thing.
Yeah.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: The fullness, the. The thing that fulfills the symbol. I have to see which ones translate it that way. But that's why I prefer antitype there because that's good theological language. But yeah, so I think I like that idea of the symbol being the creeds. I think that can be helpful. Like the. The banner, the thing we rally under are drawn to that unites us together. I think that's helpful distinction for that.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: Even in our Lutheran Confessions, we'll call baptism a sign, and we'll call the Lord's Supper a sign.
And it is a symbol. It's just not only a symbol. The problem is when you say that it's only a symbol and not a reality, that it's only a picture and not a truth, when it's only bread and wine and not body and blood, when it's only a reminder and not a giver of gifts.
So baptism is certainly a symbol, but it's not just a symbol. It's the Gnostic move. This is the. You know, since John Calvin distinguished between these kind of two types of callings. And it's always there too. But I just like to blame it on Calvin that there's the external call and the internal call, and they're different, they're not the same. And the external call, that's the Preaching of the gospel to everybody, the internal call, that's the unique work of the Spirit on the elect.
So now if it's. If it's. That means that if it's external, it's not efficacious.
So baptism supper, preaching absolution, those are all external. And according to Calvin's distinction, they cannot be efficacious. So that means they're only a symbol, we would say.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: No, they.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: They are. Exactly. They are a symbol. And more than that. So I think that's the best way to think about it.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah, if you're, if you're trying to say that the.
The Holy Spirit still works through means, and if you're calling the means in that case a symbol or a sign, if you understand that God is working through that thing, that it's not just a symbol of something else God is doing, but not connected to that thing. Those are two very different definitions.
And so it goes back to everything. Like, if you're talking to people like that, are saying, throwing around the word symbol, like, ask, what do you mean?
What do you mean by that?
How are you understanding? Because it may be. Maybe they're closer than you think when they're saying that. They're just using language they've heard. You know, that's a lot happens all the time. People say things. They're not really confident in what they mean by it. They've just heard other people say this, and if you push them, they might say, oh, no, no, I don't think it's just nothing. Or that's completely separate from what happens.
Because if you're reading some of the translations that say there's also a symbol, baptism, which now saves us.
That's not the way, even the way they have the word order there mitigates against saying baptism doesn't do anything. So you'd have to be really careful and ask, what do you actually mean by this? What are you trying to get at?
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Great.
Got another one. 196 to go.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: All right, this is about.
Well, here's a fun one for you. Are you ready?
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Ah, I'm ready.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: It's very specific. During Passion Week, Jesus curses a fig tree and it withers. Why? He had to know there was no fruit on it yet because of the season, yet he went to find some anyway.
So this is from Matthew 21 and Mark 11.
Those are the two.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: You know, this is interesting.
So the. It's the fig tree withering, according to St. Mark.
Mark 11, 12, 14.
Yeah, that. Sorry, Mark 11, verses 12 to 14 is how we're able to build a chronology of the Holy Week. That Palm Sunday, Jesus went into Jerusalem, that on Holy Monday, he. He cleansed the temple. On Holy Tuesday was his last public teaching. So it's the cursing of the fig tree and then the fact that they walk by it. The next day they're back and forth from Bethany to Jerusalem over the Mount of Olives. And Peter and the disciples see the fig tree and like, whoa, look at that. You cursed it yesterday and it's gone today.
Whew.
That's how we're able to date the chronology of Passion Week so accurately. It's really interesting.
The answer is that Jesus. Okay, so this is perfect follow up from the previous question about what a sign is.
Jesus is not angry at the fig tree for not having fruit. Jesus is angry at the Jews, at Jerusalem, for not being repentant. And so this is one of probably three Mount Olive signs that Jesus does in Holy Week to draw Jerusalem to himself. The first is that he weeps over Jerusalem. Well, maybe the first is that he rides in on a donkey and he shows himself to be the king of Israel in. In. In fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah. See, your king comes to you.
The second is that he weeps over Jerusalem. Jerusalem. Jerusalem. You stone the prophets and refuse those who were sent you. How I long to gather you under my wings, as a hen gathers her chicks. But you were unwilling.
And so not one stone will be left upon another. You're going to be destroyed. It's almost as if Jesus is. Is sitting there on the slope of the Mount of Olive, and he sees Jerusalem there laid out in front of him. And he could almost, like, see an overlay of 38 years into the future when Titus would surround the city and obliterate it. And he's weeping over the vision. Amazing, because Jesus is going to die himself. So he can also see his own destruction coming. But he's weeping not over his own destruction. He's weeping over the destruction of the city.
And the third sign that he gives is this fig tree. He goes to the fig tree, and he's hungry and tired and looks, there's no figs, and he curses it and the next. And it just withers. And this is a symbol of the judgment that is on the way for Israel. So Jesus.
So this fig tree. I mean, I guess we could say poor fig tree, but this fig tree gets brought into the preaching of our Lord Jesus as a warning to his people, and. And that's what's going on there.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: If you Go back to the Old Testament. The fig tree was one of the symbols of God's blessing upon the people. So, like during Solomon's reign, one of the key things that happens that comes up is that it talks about people sitting under their fig trees, right? And then when Jesus finds the Nathaniel, right, he's sitting, he says, I saw you under the fig tree. Fig tree. Because it was a symbol of God's blessing upon Israel. So to curse the fig tree, they would have understood that immediately, that imagery of Israel being cursed because they're rejecting the Messiah and the Savior. Like, they would have connected that. Because the Old Testament talks a lot about the fig tree and its importance and its symbolism. And now you get to Jesus cursing one, and they'd be like, oh, that's not good.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: There's that little mini parable that Jesus tells about the gardener and the fig tree, and he's going to cut it down. He says, let me have one more year more fertilizer than. If it doesn't have fruit, then you can cut it down. So the same. Same exact idea.
It's. It's really. It's really profound. It's the.
Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's. Jesus picked. He's doing everything he can to get to kind of shake up Jerusalem so that they would repent and receive the gifts that he wants to give rather than.
Than get destroyed.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: So, and instead they. They bear no fruit, and 70 A.D. they get destroyed.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: I mean, that's.
All right. You have time for one more?
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: All right.
Oh, wait, I think I skipped one.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Here's Pastor Packer adjusting to our new software. Yes, our new.
Our new question organizing software.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: This podcast brought to you by notion. Okay.
Hey, maybe we can get a. Get a sponsorship deal.
All right, this. Actually, this is a question that's come up a lot recently.
It's been in the news a lot because of Erica Kirk saying she forgave the man that assassinated her husband.
So looks like that's probably what's on their mind here, too.
Can you forgive someone who does not want to be forgiven? They insist that their sin betrayal is legitimate. They don't acknowledge doing anything wrong, and they would do it again in the future without hesitation.
So basically, this is a question that's been coming up and going around the Internet for a few weeks now.
Can you forgive someone who is unrepentant? So on your. On your part, can you forgive someone or. And do you need to forgive someone? That's the other part of this that they didn't Ask. But I've seen this a lot online recently.
Do you have an obligation to forgive someone who's unrepentant? What does that look like?
Obviously, if they're unrepentant, you can't be reconciled. So can you actually forgive them?
Those are the questions that are going around. And this seems to fit right in with that.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: It's a perfect question. So I think your distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation is really important. So if a person is not repentant, then there can be no reconciliation between the two. And we always want to be working towards reconciliation, which involves repentance from the one who sinned and restoration to the one that was sinned against. But even before there's repentance and restoration, there can be forgiveness. I would just put forth the example of Jesus and all the martyrs that followed him. So Jesus says on the cross, father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. Well, they knew exactly. I mean, they knew what they were doing. They were experts in execution, but they didn't realize that this was the Son of God that they were murdering. But still, the point is they don't even know that they're sinning.
And Jesus says, father, forgive them. The same thing for Stephen, who says almost the same exact thing when he's being stoned to death. And this is being approved of by Saul, later called Paul.
And Jesus has three prayers from the cross.
Father, forgive them. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And into your hands I commit my spirit. And Stephen prays two of those prayers.
Father, forgive them.
Lord, forgive them. And into your hands I commit my spirit to Jesus. He prays to Jesus.
It's so profound. He doesn't pray. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Because he wasn't being forsaken.
Just amazing.
So we have this example of forgiveness.
I was preaching about it this week because we had the text yesterday where Jesus says, if a person. First he talks about committing sin, it's worse if a millstone was thrown around your neck, then you cause one of the little ones to sin. So Jesus is as serious it can be about. About sin and the punishment for sin. But then he says, if someone sins against you, so. So there's two different ways that we want to think about sin. The first is our own sin against other people and the guilt that results from it. But then when I'm sinned against and Jesus says, someone sins against you and they repent, you forgive him.
And then the disciples, I think, must have jaws have been on the floor, like really just like that. And Jesus doubles down. In fact, he sevens down. He says, if they sin against you seven times in one day and come and say, I repent, you must forgive them. And that's when the disciples say, strengthen our faith. And he says, it's not the size of your faith that matters. Look, you have faith like a mustard seed. You tell the mulberry seed tree and it goes to the sea.
And then Jesus knows the danger of it, because there's two things that happen on this command to forgive. One is that we just refuse to do it. Or the second is that if we do manage to do it, we become so proud of ourselves, like we're some super Christian. So Jesus tells the parable of the master and the servant. He says, work all day. Does the master say to the servant, come sit with me and have dinner? No. He says, all right, now cook and put on your servant clothes and I'll eat, and then you can eat when it's done. And does the master thank the servant for this? No, he just.
The servant says, we're unworthy servants. I've only done what I've ought to do. So when the Christian forgives someone, they're just doing what they ought to do. Now, in that passage, Jesus talks about someone saying, I repent.
So if someone comes to you and repents, this is. The Christian is under obligation to forgive. But I think even the example of the crucifixion and the example of Stephen says that there's even more to this.
There's almost pre repentant forgiveness in a profound way. That's what the crucifixion is for us. I mean, before we even existed, the Lord's forgiven us. And so I remember a story. Now, this story exists in my mind very distinctly, but I'm sure I have it wrong. It was like one of those things that happened to me and it. Like it made such a strong impression, but I can't. Okay, so here's what I remember. I was 19 years old.
I was in Ibelin, which is a little village in the west bank of Israel, and I was helping build a school for a week run by this Coptic priest, Ilya Shakur. How this whole thing happened, and that's a long story. No matter. I was there. So I was living in this little apartment, and there was some other volunteers from America, and there was this couple there. I think they were like, from somewhere in the Midwest, like Ohio. So we're sitting there at dinner, and you're getting to know him. And they tell me this astonishing thing. So they say, they're telling me about their daughter who was murdered.
And I couldn't believe it. This, this, the horror of the story.
And I said, I said, well, what did you do?
They could they catch the man? And did you see him? And what did you do?
And they looked at me and they said, well, Brian, we forgave him.
And I must admit that I, like the disciples, my jaw hit the floor and I thought, what do you mean you forgave him for murdering your daughter?
And they looked at me with such beautiful astonishment.
And they said, they were so surprised that I was surprised.
And they said, well, yeah, we're Christian.
Like, we don't have an option.
We're Christian, of course we forgive.
We belong to the greatest forgiver of all time, and we can never forgive other people's sins against us to the degree that the Lord has already forgiven us. So the parable of the unforgiving servant, this applies here. The king just erases the debt of this guy that owes 10,000 talents, and now he's strangling the guy that owes him 600 or whatever. And this is if the Christian refuses to forgive.
We are demonstrating that we have not been captured by the Lord who forgives all sins.
So the answer is, yes, we forgive.
We're set in this world to live in the heart of God who forgives us everything.
And that shows up in us, forgiving the people that sin against us.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: I think sometimes we confuse, like you said earlier, forgiveness with reconciliation, which is why I mentioned it, but also forgiveness with, like, how I feel about the thing or the person or whatever. Like, that was an awful thing. It makes me feel awful. Therefore, I can't.
I can't forgive because of how I feel.
Whereas, like the example from Matthew 18, you gave, right, the Lord releases the debt.
And throughout the Bible, that language is used. When we forgive someone, we're releasing them from the debt, saying, you, you don't owe me. I'm not going to demand my vengeance, my pound of flesh for what you've done to me. Right, you're releasing it and letting it go.
And if they're unrepentant, that doesn't mean, like you said, it doesn't mean you're going to be reconciled, because that's an impossibility.
Even if they repent, it doesn't mean the relationship.
Well, exactly, can go back to what it was, depending on what's happened.
But part of that, too, when we release someone of the debt, one of the Things it does is it frees our hearts from getting bound up with anger and bitterness. Like if you refuse to forgive, like that stuff just, even for yourself just eats away at you. Like it is a great damage, I think, to your own soul when you hold on to those things and say, well, I'm not. I'm not going to forgive because they, they haven't, you know, said they're sorry, so I cannot forgive them. Hold on to that in anger. And that just. That eats away at you. Like there's a, you know, not. We don't do it because for selfish reasons, but there are practical reasons for yourself that you have to let go of the debt, release the debt, because otherwise that debt, I think, ends up weighing on you in a way that you can't even comprehend.
And it's going to drive you to bitterness and anger and possibly even despair because you're not letting go of that thing. And it becomes something else that does damage to you besides the sin that's already been done to you.
And it just compounds things. And I think people don't think enough about that, about what it's doing to them when they hold on in anger. Because usually when we refuse to forgive, why do we refuse to forgive?
It's because we're angry and we want to argue, well, it's a righteous anger. And there may be some truth to that. Something horrific happens, like there is an element of righteous anger, but that righteous anger can quickly flip to an ungodly anger and dwelling upon something and just consume you. Right. And I don't think people realize how quickly that can happen.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: There's a trick. There's a. It's.
I think it's a. That we think that.
That justice will bring about peace or wholeness, and it just doesn't. Now, that doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue justice, especially because if someone is so violently sinful against me now, in some ways out of love for everybody else, I don't want this person to continue on in their sins.
So forgiveness is not overlooking sin and there's temporal consequences for sin. And we can even in love, pursue those for someone. So, like, for example, when Erica Kirk forgives the assassin of her husband doesn't mean that she doesn't want him to be, you know, thrown in prison for life or that even the death penalty, but she doesn't want his soul damned in hell, but rather that he would trust in the Lord Jesus and be saved and that there would be an eternity together.
I think that one of the.
I think about this how when Paul, we were talking about Saul there overseeing the death of Stephen and how it must have been one of these most wonderful moments when Paul dies and is greeted in heaven by Stephen, you know, there's no animosity there anymore because the Lord does, through repentance, affect us, absolute, true reconciliation.
But that doesn't happen until the last day. But it doesn't. So forgiveness does not mean that we don't also pursue justice, even out of love for the neighbor. This is the problem. Justice out of love rather than justice out of anger. Sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference. And even for judges and for people who have an office of anger, there shouldn't be a difference. They just pursue justice. Fine. But for the person who sinned against, we have to know that, that I'm not going to. It's not going to be my. I'm not going to be made whole or settled or I'm not going to achieve peace if, if I get justice.
So you see this when you just watch like, the interviews of the families of victims after their, like, son's murderer is convicted to life in prison. And they come out of the courtroom and. And they've been fighting for this rightly so great for this guy to be put away forever. And they come out of the courtroom and they are just as without a son as they were before. And they say it, it doesn't bring him back.
So we pursue justice, but justice cannot bring us the freedom and the peace that grace can.
So we can pursue both. This is important. We're pursuing justice and we're forgiving sins. It's the thing that the crucifixion teaches us, that the Lord can be both just and the justifier of those who believe in him. And so we can pursue both at the same time.
The danger is when we are holding on to anger. Now, what we've done is we've justified our lovelessness for whoever it is that sinned against us, and we're not authorized to do that. Jesus says, you have an enemy. Well, now, love them, pray for them, bless them, do good to them.
Now, doing good might mean testifying against them in court, but also showing mercy.
So this is a. I mean, this is a very relevant question. But the Lord has put us in the world to be different.
And it's so different. I mean, forgiveness is so different than any other morality or ethic that exists on the world that when the world sees a Christian forgiving the sins of someone who's hurt them so much, they take notice of That I think this is one of the reasons why the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the church. Because the unbelieving world could see the martyrs praying for the soldiers who were assassinating them and blessing them. It's a pretty amazing witness to the.
[00:37:54] Speaker B: World, I think today, too, I often teach when I'm going through the Lord's Prayer and this topic comes up, right? And I use Matthew 18. But one of the things, I picked up this story in a book years ago, and I really liked it because it was about making the point. This isn't always fast, right? A Christian still may struggle. They may struggle to forgive because of whatever's been done to them.
And he tells the story of this woman who goes to her pastor and she had a horrific mother.
And the pastor says, you know, you need to forgive your mom. And she says, I don't want to. And he says, do you want to, want to? And she's like, no, I don't want to do that. He's like, do you want to, want to, want to? And this is like six or seven times she keeps saying no. Finally she says after like the seventh time, she's like, yeah, I want to, want to, want to, want to. And the pastor's like, God can work with that. Like, it was just getting her to the point where she could realize that, like, she. She needed to forgive, she didn't want to forgive, but she got to the point where she at least admit, okay, there. There's a small part of her that does want to forgive, and she knows she needs to do it, and God can take that and work with that. And I often tell people, you may like this idea of forgiving someone, like, especially. It's a really horrific thing. Like those feelings and emotions, whenever you remember what's happened can come flooding back and you might have to release that debt again and again. Like in your own heart and mind, right to. It's not. Doesn't mean it's going to be like once and one and done and you never have to deal with it again. It could be something you have to do multiple times to forgive because of the way it impacts you. Even when you think about it, I.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Always am having this conversation with people who are so wounded and sinned against and said, hey, Jesus died for your sins, and Jesus died for the sins committed against you.
And that's a hard thing to say because, like, you're just mentioning people say, well, I don't want Jesus to be dead for those sins. I want him to be angry for those sins, but it gets right at the cross. And there is a profound freedom, profound freedom in recognizing that Christ also died for the sins that were committed against me, which is what he did. I mean, he was dying. Every single sin is directed at God, and He was dying for those sins. He wasn't just dying for the sins that he saw other people doing against other people. He. He. Every single sin was against Him. And that's what he was dying for, to forgive those sins.
And so he's also on the cross for the sins committed against me. And when. When that.
When that truth captures our heart, boy, there's some. There's some wonder there.
That's it. I mean, that's already a foretaste of heaven.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: I think it's a beautiful spot to end on.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: Thanks. Pastor Packer, pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Collinsville, Illinois. I'm Pastor Brian Wolfmuller at St. Paul and Jesus Death. You only got one church there?
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Just one? Yeah.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Okay. I got a couple here in Austin, Texas, coming.
[00:40:52] Speaker B: I'm slacking.
[00:40:53] Speaker A: Come and join us.
I'm going to look down on you until I only have one, and then I'll.
If you have questions, Wolfmield Co contact.
That'll feed them up. We only have 195 waiting for us, so you better fill up the queue there. We'll look forward to some more next time. Until then, God's peace be with you.
