Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians. Welcome to the Theology Q and A podcast. I'm Pastor Brian Wolfmother, St. Paul and Jesus Deaf Lutheran churches in Austin, Texas, with Pastor Andrew Packer, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, I heard a rumor about you, is that your favorite thing in life is when you're visiting a church somewhere and they ask all the visitors to stand up in front of everybody.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: It's one of the worst things a church can ever do.
I think it's terrible.
Even as a pastor, Like, I like. I don't think any visitor feels welcomed when you do that. I think they feel like you've put their head on a chopping block. I think that's how they feel.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Okay, you're watching this and you're hearing Pastor Pack, but you guys gotta trust me, if he. If you ever see him visiting your church, you don't have to tell the other visitors to stand, but I'd like you to have him stand up.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Tell him.
I wouldn't actually mind. I would not mind that that much, honestly, if it was just me. But I always feel bad for visitors when, like, you see them. You can tell. I've been in churches where people have been made to do this and you look at them and you're like, they are, like, terrified that they're being made. Like they're being put on the spot. And you can just see how uncomfortable they are.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: The third time I visited a Lutheran church, we visited one church. They didn't do this a couple weeks. And then we visited another church and we had to do this. And we stood up and then the ladies, the old ladies brought us a little gift bag and it was a mug with the church logo on it and some candy in it and said, you've been mugged.
I still remember that. It made an impression.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: It didn't make an impression.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: You got some questions for us today?
[00:01:37] Speaker B: I do. This one's interesting on what do you do for those who have turned away from Lutheran theology? Oh, boy. So you often talk about people, including yourselves, who have moved towards Lutheranism after experiencing other Christian traditions. How can you explain the movement of someone away from Lutheran theology after living it for decades? I struggle to explain this movement of people who have experienced strong theology and study mature Christian behaviors and growth sacramental understanding towards an evangelical, non denominational tradition. One reason I have heard for this decision is interest in relationship with Jesus versus traditions, routines and quote, unquote, more programs for children.
But I still struggle with the concept of people leaving the Lutheran Church in order to Pursue something that, in my opinion, is less rooted in solid doctrine. It feels as if most are looking for something that just feels good. Can you offer an explanation and or encouragement or advice for our communication and relationship with these fellow believers who have jumped ship?
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Remember when I was a baby pastor, me and another guy went out on the street and we were talking to people about asking them theology questions. And I don't know, we talked to 15 people or something in this day.
And of the 15 people, three of them grew up in the Lutheran Church and left.
No one grew up in. I mean, there's. And I think there's more ex Lutherans in the world than anything else now. I think everybody is either Lutheran or pre Lutheran. Even the ex Lutherans are pre Lutheran. I mean, that's how I see the world. They're on their way back. I don't know how, but that's the idea. We got to think of it this way. But there are a lot of people who leave, and there's generally three different reasons. So Jesus outlines this in the parable of the Sower, where there's the devil, the birds that snatch up the seed, and there's the weeds, that's the pleasures of life, and there's the stones, it's the troubles of life. And those are the three things that are attacking our faith one way or another.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: And.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: And they can attack it also spiritually.
But there's another thing, and this is that one of the reasons why Lutherans can leave the Lutheran Church is that they sort of. They have what I call Luther rose glass glasses through which they hear the preaching of other churches.
In other words, there might be a church that preaches nothing like law and gospel, but they hear law and gospel in the preaching because they're used to hearing it.
Or here's another example. I remember talking to this family, Lutheran family.
They were friends of ours. They didn't go to the church. They weren't members.
They left their Lutheran church to go to a Calvary chapel. And I said, well, do you miss the body and blood?
And they said, oh, we have the body and the blood. And I said, well, no, they believe it's a symbol. And they said, well, we know better.
In other words, they were like taking their Lutheran theology and like plastering it over the bad doctrine that was at the other churches so that it didn't. To make it more palatable to them. So I think that's one of the things that happens oftentimes is you get people saying, well, it's not that different.
Well, if it's not that different, then what are we doing having two different denominations?
If it's not that different, what are we doing practicing close communion? If it's not that different, what are we doing calling ourselves two different names?
There is a real, true difference in the preaching of the different denominations. That's, you know, we can't.
That's just a truth.
And so, anyway, we have to probably acknowledge that. But I think that's a lot of times what's behind it.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: I think most. For most people, like, I think she wants, like, a.
She wants an answer why? But I don't think most people, even if you ask them why, I don't think they actually know. Because we're. We're much more complicated as human beings, and most decisions we make are not rational. We don't make. Very few people make a purely rational decision about anything. Right. There's all kinds of things that factor into these kind of decisions. And it could be stuff they don't even fully realize.
Maybe it is. They're drawn to how it makes them feel. And maybe they don't even realize that.
Maybe it's because they have friends there. Like, you're going back to previous discussions we've had about the importance of friendship in church. Maybe they have more friends at that church, so that kind of draws them over there. Maybe it's because of. They mention programs for children. Maybe you're at a Lutheran church with no kids, and this church has a bunch of kids, and so you're drawn to that. Like, and it may not be, like, if you ask them, like, what's the reason you left? They might tell you something.
But anyone who's been a pastor long enough or if you've talked to people long enough, you know that whatever reason they give is probably not the reason. There's probably, like, hundreds of reasons behind it that finally led to that.
And so I don't know if there's a good answer just because I don't know if we.
Sometimes there is. Sometimes people really study things out and say, I really disagree with this. And now I want to be Baptist. I think the Lutherans are wrong on baptism and Lord's Supper. I want to be Baptist, okay? But even then, I don't think that's always 100%, like, rational decision. Even if people come into Lutheran Church, we should be honest about that, too, right? It's not like everyone who comes in is coming in purely because, like, they now get theology and now this is what they want. Like, there can be all kinds of reasons People come into our churches. So I'm not sure if there's a good answer because I think for each individual it's going to vary wildly in between person to person based on their experiences, based on what drew them into that church. And it could be more things than that person even realizes. And some of them may be legitimate, like, good reasons, and some of them may be just terrible reasons, and some of them may not be reasons at all. But just like, because of, like, she mentions how it makes you feel, all of that could be possible.
How do you deal with them afterwards? I think you continue to, to love them as brothers or sisters in Christ and encourage them, like, and go from there. Like, I don't, I don't think you have to bash them over the head constantly with like, here's what you've abandoned, like, you've abandoned all this, like, and beat them up over it. I think you should be willing to have conversations with them though, and ask them questions. So why did you decide to do this?
What about the Lord's supper? What about your kid's baptism? What about this thing or that thing we had?
I had someone in Pagosa, they apparently had moved there before I moved there, but they had checked out the church before I got there and decided it didn't have like contemporary music. So they weren't going to go.
And they were from a Lutheran church from somewhere else, an LCMS church. And so they went to the Southern Baptist Church in town and they had attended there for almost 10 years.
And they come to church one day because the kids are now out of the house.
They were never confirmed. They don't know anything about Lutheran theology doctrine. But now the parents are like, well, we thought that was better for our kids because they liked the music better. And I said, but what about, what about getting confirmed? What about the doctrine, all these things? And I just didn't really have an answer for that. So they attended church one day and said, you know, I think we'd really come here and we'd really like it, but you would have to change some things. And I said, well, we're not going to do that. If you're happy you're at that other church, like continue at the other church. And that's what happened.
But they went based on what they thought their kids would like the best.
That's the initial decision was my kids will like this better.
And that ended up being a decade long process of them then just deciding, well, we actually are this thing now. But they told themselves for years they were Still Lutheran, but by the end of that 10 years, they were no longer Lutheran and just kind of acknowledged it.
And that was the end of those conversations. So, I mean, that's kind of a weird one. But it started with, my kids will like this better. That's how it started.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: So. And I think parents do that maybe more than we realize now. That's a. I think it's a terrible reason to pick a church because your kids don't know what they like and they don't know what's good for them. And I don't let my kids make all kinds of decisions like that because of that.
But you got to be careful if that's. If that's the way you're going to go. I mean, what if your kid wants to go to a Buddhist temple because they think that's cool? Is that, you know, like, how far do you take that, letting your kids decide what church you go to?
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Amen.
Reminds me how Luther says the devil's the master of a thousand arts. And all those arts are directed at getting us to lose either the faith, our confidence in God, mercy of God, or love or hope. I suppose so. The devil's. You know, there's a thousand back doors of the church.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: All right, this one's on Protestants in Roman Catholic schools.
I've been wrestling with whether or not sending my son to a private Roman Catholic school as a Protestant is a wise decision to make. The local private Roman Catholic school in my area has by far the best academics.
They are a good sports school, which is something I'd like my son to participate in in the future.
There are no. There are no Protestant schools in my county. And the closest one would be a Baptist private school in the county next door.
I'm not looking to debate homeschool versus public school versus private school. I just want to know if, as a Protestant, sending my kid to a Roman Catholic school is okay.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Sure.
Have you heard my theory about how classical school is a plot by Roman Catholics to get all the Protestants to become Roman Catholic because they teach Latin and not Greek or German?
[00:11:34] Speaker B: No, I haven't heard that.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: That's my conspiracy theory, by the way. Prove me wrong.
But, you know, we're trying to do the best we can for the education of the kids. And there's going to be a lot of times false doctrine taught at the school, even if it's a Lutheran school. I mean, you can't. You cannot.
There's nowhere safe.
I mean, there's no. We should. I mean, even when we go to our own church.
Like, even when I'm listening to myself preach, I have to be careful that I'm hearing the right thing, that the doctrine is right according to the catechism.
So we always have to be exercising discernment. And that's exactly the case at the Catholic school. They're going to teach Catholic stuff. And so the kids have to know, hey, when we go to theology, we're going to get some Catholic theology, which is, you know, anti Christian.
I mean, it comes from the Antichrist. So that we're going to get it, but we'll also get some Bible and we'll get the creed and we'll get some history stuff and a good education. We praise the Lord. But yeah, when that's, you know, we're trying to figure out what our best options are. But we're always, I mean, look, this is why education belongs to the parents and not to the state. It belongs in the home.
And if the parents are not engaging the kids in the stuff that they're learning according to the Scriptures and the catechism, then it doesn't matter where they're going.
And I suppose if they are engaging the kids in that stuff, then it doesn't matter where they're going. I mean, the most kind of stridently secular school, if the parents are there teaching the catechism at home, you're fighting against it. That's what we're called to do.
So that's my take. What do you got?
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with what you said. I think part of, in some ways, maybe because you're concerned, maybe you'll be more diligent as a parent than you would be if, you know, I'm not saying if you had the option, like you had a really great Lutheran high school and a really great Roman Catholic high school, that you should forego the Lutheran one because maybe you'll be more diligent. But I mean, if you're aware of the problems and you are paying attention and you're being actively involved, because I think sometimes what happens is this is true whether you're a Roman Catholic parent, a Baptist parent, Lutheran, whatever, you send your kid off to that school and you kind of like, oh, they're going to do that job for me, right? You can kind of check out of it like, oh, they're going to teach my kid all the Bible, the catechism, they're going to do all this stuff. They have chapel there. Right? Because I think that's one reason sometimes families who have their kids in the school are like, oh, we don't need to go to church on Sunday. Like, the kids have chapel. They're already getting it. Like, what do we need that for? Whereas at least in this situation, you're aware of the issues and you're going to be paying attention, probably asking lots of questions like, what did you learn? What do they talk about today?
You know, so you can compare it.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Did the nun hit you with a ruler?
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Did you.
Did you receiving beatings? Did you receive the stigmata at school today? Things like that. It's kind of questions. You should.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: We've got one family there, a couple families that are going to a Roman Catholic. And I get more questions from those kids about theology than any of the other kids because they're just engaged in that. They're right in the thick of it, in the soup.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: And it's great, right? So I think there's. There's could be some advantages to that as far as, like, usually you're gonna have that problem no matter where you send your kids. Like, you're going to have to be engaged and involved in making sure that they're being taught what you think they should be taught.
So you can't shirk that responsibility no matter what. And it sounds like they're already thinking about these issues. So it sounds like they're not going to be lazy about it or slothful. So I think it'll work.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Well, they probably sent the question like three years ago, so it's probably too late.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: It could be way too late.
This question's on the second commandment in my workplace.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Which one is that again? Hold on.
Quick, remind me.
Well, I'm just kidding.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: I was gonna make a joke. Okay.
In my workplace, I often hear people use the Lord's name in vain. I heard an Eastern Orthodox priest say that we should not let his, this sin slide as easily as it does.
That we should make the sign of the cross and say something along the lines of great is the name of Christ Jesus. At the same volume, if not louder than we heard it said.
How ought we to react when someone takes the Lord's name in vain around us, whether it's at work, school, whatever? How should we react? What should we do?
[00:16:09] Speaker A: I like the question.
I like the option that that Orthodox priest gives, but I do not. Here's the problem, and this is maybe the problem of Orthodoxy is that I want to come at my neighbor with their benefit in mind, with love for my neighbor.
Not that I want to have no love for God, but I think that God can take care of himself. So it's not my.
It is my life to worship God.
It's not necessarily my calling to defend God in every way.
So when I hear my neighbor blaspheme or speak in ways that violate the second commandment or the fifth or the sixth commandment or whatever, I have to think, well, how now do I love my neighbor? And remember our five rules for the shape of love? The last one, well, the first one is, what's the commandment? Second, what's my vocation? Third is, what's my neighbor's need? Fourth is, what's my gifts. And the fifth is what's my neighbor's sin? Because my sin affects the way that I love my neighbor. It's awkward to love your neighbor in the midst of their sin, but to say, how can I love my neighbor in this circumstance?
And so it's not my calling to defend the name of God. It is my calling here to love my neighbor. And so maybe if calling him out on it is helpful, then that's helpful. But I'm doing it not to help me to make me feel better or to make Jesus feel better, but to make to serve him towards repentance.
Who's the famous martyr? Was it Polycarp who this happened or someone said, swore, blasphemed by the name of Jesus, and he said, oh, you know, my Lord.
There was a sort of similar reaction to say it maybe indicates to people, hey, that name that you're using to curse is the name of my Savior and my dear friend.
But there's a way that you can say that and be heard.
And there's a way that you can say that that makes the person want to blaspheme even more because you're kind of being obnoxious.
So I always think that our response in these ways has to be governed by an actual love for the neighbor who we're dealing with. That's just kind of thumbnail reaction.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: I would just add to that, that if that's the case, that's what we're trying to do. That means also there's not going to be a one size fits all answer because each of our neighbors is going to be very different. Like, what's my relationship to that person?
How well do I know them?
How old do they know me? Right? It's me just shouting something louder than them.
Well, like what's. Is that actually going to help them? Is it going to help anything? Or am I just, like you said, being obnoxious? And depending on the person, that may be the proper Response.
Depending on the situation, it may be the worst possible response. I think in other situations, like depending on who it is and what's going on and what the context is for it, what if they do that and the reason they've done that is because they've just received the most terrible news, like on the phone, right?
And they say something, they take the Lord's name in vain because they just heard some terrible news from a family member.
And your response is, yes, great is the name of the Lord, which almost sounds like you're mocking them, right?
I think you're in danger of possibly taking the Lord's name in vain.
If, if that's always your response.
If you're just doing that to kind of one up them, I think you're probably in equal danger of taking the Lord's name in vain. But what if that's what happened and that's why they, they, they let out this expletive taking the Lord's name in vain. It's because they just found out something horrible happened to someone in their family.
And your response is kind of like this obnoxious way to get back at them when really, what you know, oh no, what happened?
And then you find out, can I pray for you? Whereas if your immediate response is just to correct them, you may miss that opportunity. So there's a lot of ways this could play out. And I think it depends on too many factors to give like a, hey, this is what you gotta do. You need to be discerning and wise in this situation to know whether you, what you should speak at all, should I say anything and if I'm going to speak, what should I say and is it going to be helpful to the neighbor? I think you got to kind of run through all those things, which is probably way more than what most people want to work through in that situation. But I think you have to, like, if you're going to do this, like,
[00:20:53] Speaker A: do it well, I would maybe the first step is to when, if, if we hear someone blaspheme with the Lord's name, that we ourselves would pause and praise the Lord's name. You don't have to do it out loud. But even just like Lord Jesus, your name is precious to me.
A prayer like that.
I had a friend in high school who, whenever someone would blaspheme in the Lord's name, he would kneel and then so he would just genuflect. At the name of Jesus from Philippians 2. At the name of Jesus, every knee should bow. That made a pretty Big impression on me.
But he wouldn't, he wasn't after that person. He was just like Jesus name bow.
And maybe we do that. We just, you know, we bow our head at the name of Jesus and then it might be looking for that opportunity to say to the person, hey, you know, the name of the Lord Jesus is very precious to me.
It's the sweetest sound in all the world.
And it hurts me to hear you using it like a curse word, you know, to have a conversation that has some tenderness to it, that maybe it's helpful too. But like you said, it's gonna be motivated by love for the neighbor and trying actually to make a difference. Here's the thing that when we engage with people, we should not despair of actually making a difference of changing their mind about something.
So we want to have that in mind as we engage with people.
We're not just saying stuff to say stuff. That's the kind of Internet memes thing. We're just saying stuff to say stuff. And I'm here saying stuff because like, I feel good that I just spoke truth to power or whatever. It's not about me.
It's about actually trying to, to change people's minds and hearts about the wisdom and comfort that the Lord has in his word.
So we should be engaged in, in life, not in this sort of. Well, what is it called? There's a what? There's a name for that. Virtue signaling. We're not trying to. We're just walking around. Virtue signaling.
We're actually trying to love and serve the neighbor.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: All right, this next one's. I think the first time we've answered a breakup question.
So we are treading on new ground.
How do you handle a breakup after dating someone from your church?
I think this is a great question. Okay, I feel bad for the person, but it's a great question.
I would love your counsel on how to deal with a breakup with someone who, whom I had been dating at church. I'm a 30 year old man who takes his faith seriously and wants to be married. I thought I had potentially found the one.
After having begun dating a girl from church over the last three months.
I had really begun to see a future together and had the increasing desire to love her sacrificially. Despite the fact all signs indicated the relationship was going well. She ended it out of the blue very recently saying the fact that she felt I moved too fast, said I love you too soon, and not where I was emotionally nor spiritually. It feels like I've been hit by A bus. How can I handle this both personally and with the understanding that she's also a sister in Christ with whom I share a church life.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Bless you, brother.
This. This sounds like three or four conversations I've had really recently. In fact, I wonder who, but I don't. Do you see a Texas IP address?
It's great that we have all these young adults and that are trying to get to know each other and hoping to be married, and it just doesn't always work out. So this is the question is what.
So I think to clarify the question, and then I'll just ask you what you think. Pastor Pagar, what does the vocation of ex boyfriend look like?
What does the Bible say about that? It's a strange vocation to be an ex boyfriend or an ex girlfriend.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't.
I don't envy a situation because the thing is, it's just gonna be awkward, right? At least for a while. It's gonna be fairly awkward.
I think the vocation aspect of it would be going back to what we just said in a previous question is, what is the best way to love the neighbor in this situation?
And I think the answer to that is to make it as less awkward as possible.
Which the problem with that is, like, especially if the guy still has feelings for her, is that the danger is going to be no matter what he tries to do, he's going to make it more awkward.
Right? That's the right. Let's be honest. That's the problem. I think so. I think probably the first thing is the old giving space, right? And perhaps that means, like, if you've both been going to the same service and the church offers multiple services, perhaps you can go to a different service for a while. So 1. I think it's gonna be distracting for you anyway. Like, if she's there and you're like, you're thinking, like, you're just gonna be distracted by her anyway, so that's probably a better option. If you don't have that option, probably, like not sitting near, like, try just trying to give distance and space.
I mean, you can still say hi and be friendly or whatever, but I think probably giving some space so you're not making it awkward for her too, because it's gonna be awkward for both of you.
And so how. How do you. How do you do that? And. And I don't know this person at all. I don't even know their name.
But maybe.
Maybe there's some. They hope some things will work out and down the road. Right.
And so if you go in with that hope and then you're, you're viewing her, viewing her through the lens of, well, I think I can make this work out like I can. And maybe you can, but I don't think you should approach it that way, especially at church. Like, your goal at church should be to make it as comfortable as possible for both of you to not feel the awkwardness. So whatever you have to do, whether it's sitting further apart, whether it's going to a different service, I don't know. And I'm just throwing things out here, I'm not entirely sure. I think that's the key though. How do I love them? I think the first thing is don't make it awkward. But it's already awkward, so don't make it more awkward, I guess would be better. It's already awkward. Don't make it more awkward than it needs to be.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Here's an important thing, and this is to keep in mind for all the kids that are hoping to date or dating, is that you conduct yourself with such a degree of chastity that there is no shame in your relationship after it's over.
That's really, really important. I mean, that cannot be overstated because if you cross those lines of chastity, then, then there's, there's nothing but shame that's, that's left in the relationship. So that's key. Absolutely key.
The other thing is, and here's the, like, the indicator that I've been talking to the guys about, like, can you, can you be happy if she starts to date someone else?
And the, the, because then that sets you also free to like, all right, now I'm moving on.
So you're kind of, in some ways like, your worst nightmare is that she starts dating somebody else. Is your best hope.
So to find like, what friend can you introduce and say like, hey, it didn't work out between us, but I think you should give it a shot. And they go out on a date and then you're like, all right, moving on. And, and that's kind of the best thing for both of you because when you're in this sort of lingering thing, wondering if it's going to work out and like, you know, doing 100 push ups before you go to church, just in case maybe she might notice you're bulking, bulging shoulders or whatever, this is the, you gotta, you're trying to get past that, that stage as quick as you can. So that's, I mean, that's not biblical advice, that's just Kind of practical stuff.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: I like how I.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: When I say bulking shoulders, you hold up your wicking vicar biceps there, passer cracker.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: No, I was thinking don't give them workout advice since pushups are not for shoulders. So that was. That's actually what I was thinking.
That was my first thought. But second. Second thought, I do. I think the hard part with this is for people caught in the situation is it. I think for a lot of young people looking. People looking for a spouse, it seems like there's so few options in the Lutheran Church for them that.
You know what I mean? Like, the dating pool already feels small for guys in general right now, I think for a variety of reasons.
And then within the Lutheran Church, it feels even smaller.
And then. So when you think you found someone and then it doesn't happen, I think that doesn't make it even harder for young people now because they feel like you're drawing from such a small pool already.
And now I gotta kind of start over. And I think that makes it even harder. So I do feel we need to
[00:29:46] Speaker A: be encouraged with the odds because you only need one person.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: That's right. You just need one.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: So the odds are on your favor. And this, by the way, this very problem is why this Walther League that we're working on rebooting is not going to have church chapters, but city chapters. Because there is a reluctance even for people to date in church just because they don't want to ruin the friendship. So let's have a. We'll have the Austin area chapter of the Walter League, and then they can all meet and mingle and if it doesn't work out, okay.
But yeah, it's worth the risk. It's worth the risk to engage in these conversations, to try to make it work, and to be praying too, that the Lord would give you wisdom to navigate this. And leaning into the James 1 passage where he promises to give wisdom to all who ask.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: You're saying it's better to have love and lost than never to have loved before?
[00:30:45] Speaker A: I'm saying if you love something, let it go.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: All right,
[00:30:54] Speaker A: this is the 90s cliche love story stuff. Don't ask us for advice. What do we know?
[00:31:02] Speaker B: Hopefully that was helpful. He's like, wow, that was not helpful at all. Guys thinks, okay, this one's on fearing and loving God. This might be a very silly and naive question, but I can't figure it out on my own.
On the one hand, the Bible says that we should fear and tremble before God. Luther constantly speaks of this. In his small catechism. But on the other hand, there's 1 John 4. 18, which says that there is no fear. And true love, right, perfect love, casts out fear.
So what is actually meant when we say we should fear God? Does this carry over in some way into our human relationships? Parents, children, husbands, wives, leaders, citizens, and so on.
For example, the fourth commandment. Thank you.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: I have something to say about this.
The.
Because I used to think. I used to have a wrong idea about it. So if the first commandment, you shall have no other gods. Luther says, what does this mean? We should fear love and trust in God above all things. And I used to think, okay, here's God over here, and here's me over here. And the things that I should do towards God is fear and love and trust.
So I have a lot of different things I can do, but those are the three things I should do. That's a wrong picture. This is the picture is that our heart is fearing, loving, and trusting. It's what the heart does, maybe hoping, which is trusting in the future. But anyway, fear, love, and trust, those are the. That is the activity of the heart. And the question is, to whom does that belong?
Who am I authorized to fear? And when the Lord says, and this is. The point is, you cannot be free from fear.
You cannot. You're gonna be fearing.
And that fear is a form of worship. In fact, all three of those things put together, fear, love, and trust. That is what worship is.
So what is it that I fear and what is it I love, and what is it that I trust? That's my God by definition. The things that I give my fear, love and trust to. That is.
That's the God that I'm. That's the thing that I'm worshiping, because that's what worship is. So when the Lord says, you should fear me, the most important thing is that what he's also saying is, you should not fear anything that's not me.
So you should not fear the devil. You should not fear death, you should not fear sin. You should not fear poverty. You should not fear sickness. You should not fear whatever pain.
All those things you are not authorized to fear, only me.
And then when we give our fear to God, you alone do I fear. In other words, the only one that I am concerned about offending is God.
Or the one that I'm concerned above all of offending is God, the one that I know I'm going to stand before on the last day. And maybe this is the point, because there's a lot of judgment.
There's a lot of.
We will stand before a lot of people for judgment in this life. Like right now, Pastor Packer, you and I are standing before. I don't know how many people watch these videos. We're standing before three people, and they're judging us. You know, they're judging what we're saying according to the Lord's word. So we're getting that judgment. And then I'll stand before the congregation for judgment when I stand up and preach, and I'll stand before my children for judgment when I give them. In other words, there's a lot of times I'm going to be judged. But the last one in line of this whole life of being judged, the last one and in fact the only one that matters is God.
So that I am living. I am to live my life with an eye to that last judgment. That's what it means when we say fear, God, that I'm not trying to navigate all these other judgments in neglect of that last one.
But I know that I have to stand before God. And that's the frightful thing.
And then when all the other fears are tossed aside, when the Lord says, no, you shouldn't fear the devil, or you shouldn't fear death. You shouldn't fear mockery. You shouldn't fear shame. You shouldn't fear anything else. You should fear me.
Okay, Lord, I fear you. And he says, don't be afraid.
I am nothing to be afraid of.
So that when our fear of everything else is called off and we have at last only the fear of God, that's when the Lord Jesus says, like when he said when he says to the disciples on Easter, peace be with you. Do not fear. Do not fear.
But for the Lord to be able to say things like, perfect love casts out fear. We have to be giving that love to him.
And then he who is perfect love is the one who takes it and says, I'm not to be afraid of. So that the Judgment Day, while I have that mind toward the Judgment Day, the Judgment Day for me is Redemption Day. It's Glory Day. It's Salvation Day. It's Deliverance Day, that last day.
And I'm living my life toward that,
[00:35:46] Speaker B: I think, too, comes into play here. There's different ways the Bible talks about fear.
So there's the servile, the slavish fear that the Bible says we're not to have. And then there's the filial fear. And there's like, other kinds, too. But for our purposes right now, those two are the main two, right, the filial fear of God, like the fear of a child towards a parent, it's not the same. We don't fear God in the same way. Like a slave fears their master, right? It is a different relationship. And so the fear within that relationship looks different than it does, you know, for someone who's serving like a wicked God, right? That kind of fear for someone who's serving a wicked, like, volatile God, who you never know what they're going to be like or what it's going to. How things are going to go. And you're constantly living in that, like, when's the shoe going to drop, When's God going to get me? Kind of attitude.
I saw one pastor saying, it's such a great line I used in a sermon recently that if God wanted to get you, he would have gotten you already. Like, that's like, he wouldn't have missed, right? Like, so if that's how God felt towards you, like, it'd already be done. Like, he would have gotten you already. But so our relationship to God as his children is different. And so that, that fear. Cause we hear fear and we. I think we just. We think of being scared of someone, right?
And you'll notice, like, in that thing, fearing and loving and trusting all go together, right?
They're not. They're not to be, I think, completely separate. Like, you're fearing and loving and trusting because he is your good and gracious heavenly Father. He is a God worthy of that type of fear, love and trust. Not the slavish fear, but the fear of a child towards their parents. And that's a very different thing than having in your mind that I'm supposed to be terrified of God in the way that a slave's terrified of his master or something like that. It just is a different relationship. Now, like Luther says, you should fear God's wrath. If you're, like, rejecting God's ways and doing your own thing, like, then, yeah, you should fear God's wrath.
And again, I think that's even a different type of fear than the filial fear that Luther's talking about. Through most of the commandments, we should fear God because we love him. And as you said, we want to honor Him. We don't want to disappoint him. We don't want to let him down. We want to reverence him, like all those things. And so I think that is a different dynamic than the way people often hear it. So when they hear perfect love cast out fear, it's talking about that slavish fear. It's not talking about the filial fear you have as a, a child of God. So I do, I do think that helps too with it a little bit because too many people hear fear and think of it just in one way of being like deathly afraid of like God. Like we're supposed to be deathly afraid of God every day as his children. No, that's not what it's talking about.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: Well said.
[00:38:29] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: That's it. Hey everyone, thanks for your questions. Wolfmuller co Contact is the way to send more. We're trying to get over 500 in the queue close so thanks for that. Thanks for being engaged in these conversations. It's really great when you like and subscribe and leave comments that helps. Send these out to everybody else so.
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