Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, welcome to the Theology Q and A podcast. I'm Pastor Brian Wolfmother, St. Paul and Jesus Deaf Lutheran churches in Austin, Texas, joined with with by four joined for Pastor Andrew Packer, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, I heard that you took a Nazarite vow. Rumor that you.
That's where your head went.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: I mean, that'd be the conclusion of the vow, wouldn't it?
[00:00:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: If I took the vow, I wouldn't be allowed to cut it for ever until I finished the vow.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: That's right. Okay, so it is true. Confirmed. Rumor confirmed. Finally.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: That's right. I just finished the vow. Shaved my head.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: You got some questions for us?
[00:00:36] Speaker B: I do. The first one's on prevenient grace.
What do Lutherans believe about so called prevenient grace?
[00:00:44] Speaker A: How about you tell me what it is and then I'll tell you what we believe about it?
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Well, generally it's understood.
Generator said provenient has the idea that it goes before. Right. So it's the grace that goes before that kind of frees your will so you can cooperate with God for your salvation.
That's a pretty short.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: I'll tell you what, you. We have to, we have to protect our will like Fort Knox from this freedom creeping in because it wants to get. I mean, you got Pelagianism and then you got semi Pelagianism and then you got partially semi. I mean, everybody wants to be a free will theologian.
And, and it's dangerous, I think, because we're under the weird illusion that to diminish our will and salvation is to diminish our. I don't know how we're created by God, this to diminish our humanity. But the opposite is actually the case, as we see in so many practical examples. Is whenever you have a free will theology, then you go on to prevent.
To create a will binding institution.
Sheesh.
So you get the free will theology of Rome and then you get Rome, then you get the Pope who enslaves men.
I mean, and you do the same thing with any sort of conversion theology is that you like my will is free, but it has to be manipulated. So in fact, on this side of the fall, the highest way to think about man is according to his bound will. We consider that a man is justified by faith. That means a man is a sinner who is rescued by the grace of God. Okay, so on this specific question, we want to understand that our will is the object of conversion, not the instrument of conversion.
So that God's word and the Spirit are working first. And the thing that's converted is our will. So that as St. Augustine says, the Lord makes willing the those who are unwilling.
So grace is the efficient cause of conversion, of faith, of our willing.
It's God's doing that we will first. And then once the Lord makes us willing, then our wills cooperate in a very weak and I suppose, limited sense with the continuing grace of God.
But that first moment of willing and believing must be understood to be the Lord's work. It is the Lord who works in us to will.
And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
We have to hold on to that so that if someone's trying to sneak in the free will through prevenient grace, it's it. I mean, the very name itself wants to drive a distinction between.
Well, to drive a distinction between God's working so that I can will so that I can be justified, that just that move has to be excluded.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: It might be helpful if we link To People Article 2 of the formula of Concord on Free Will, since it's so helpful in this. I was trying to find a good summary there, but all of it's so good it's hard to like pick one part out of it. You know, of course they quote Luther on the third article of the Creed. I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him. But there does seem to be this struggle we have. We want to be like, well, no, I can't do that. But if God does this, then I can do all kinds of stuff.
But they don't actually mean salvation. Right? They're talking about this idea is that, well, God gives you just enough so that you can do what you weren't able to do, rather than it's kind of like you're dead and then you get like partially resuscitated and then you can kind of help save yourself rather than being completely dead and brought all the way back to life. That seems to be what provenient grace is going for. And I understand, like you said, why they. There's that temptation to want to do that, right? You want to be able to say you did something and so God comes along and helps you get there and then you can take it the rest of the way. But if you check out the solid declaration, especially free will from our Formula of Concords, which we'll try to put a link to in the description, it's extremely helpful because it goes into great detail about this, how it's not just that we're dead in Trespasses and sins, but we're actually rebelling against God. We actually don't want anything to do with God. Our will is completely messed up.
It doesn't just need help, it needs to. As you said, it needs to be the object of conversion.
So I think it's extremely helpful with that.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: We should do a deep dive into the formula at some point and just kind of walk through it because it's so helpful and needful. Is that a word needed?
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yes, the word I need for works.
It's.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: And you're right,
[00:05:57] Speaker B: we have a hymn.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: That's right. That's right.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: You wouldn't want to say one thing's needy, one thing's needed. That's what you say. Okay, good.
So we'll do. Let's do that. But I think you're. Because the formula, it just quotes the Scriptures too.
I mean, it's great. And this came up.
I mean, this always comes up in the, in the question. I mean really, you can divide theology in this way. You have free will theologians and you have bound will theologians. And, and we look at Rome and we're like, ah, free will theology. We look at the east, we're like, ah, free will theology. We look at, I mean, Arminianism, ah, free will theology. We look at American evangelicalism, revival, revivalized reform theology, ah, free will theology. We even look at the Reform. Like when the Reformed get tricked into talking about prevenient grace, we're like, ah, now. You're free will theology now too. So there's just two theology. And when we. And, and, and here's this thing I'm trying to figure out how to articulate. When we become free will theologians, we cease to be theologians. We become philosophers now and we're not really doing theology. So the object of theology is man the sinner and God the forgiver of sins.
And so as soon as we cease to speak of man a sinner.
But I mean, that's what we say. Our free will is free to sin in all different ways, but that's all it's free to do. It's not free to serve God and to be righteous and holy. And we should probably remember that. Like we had this big fight about this with St. Augustine and Pelagius and everybody else with fighting St. Augustine. And we kind of settled it back then, so that's great.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: I always point to Luther in the bondage of the will. Well, I paraphrase him, but he basically says, look, if you say God is 99 point like 9, 9 9% responsible for your salvation and you and your will are only.001% responsible. Do you want to give all the credit to God except for like 001%?
He says, but then you still would never know if you did enough.
Right. You would never know if your will, if you willed enough. And so you'd always have doubts. And so that one of the things it robs you from is the assurance of your salvation if you put it into your will at all. Even if it's that tiny little percentage. And you're like, well, but God did most of the work.
Luther says, nope, if God didn't do all of the work, then you're just always going to wonder, did I do enough today?
And so it's either 100 God or not. And that's Luther's biggest concern in the bondage of the will.
Even though he's often, I think, misunderstood there.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's always the what comes after. So if it's scripture and the thing that really matters is what is later, what's and. Or grace and well, it's the and that matters. Or faith. And it's the and now does we. I guess we could ask this question as we're talking about prevenient grace. Could we say that the grace of God comes to us before that converting gracious act? Well, sure. I mean, this is. Everything that the Lord does to us is gracious.
The chief question is in what way is it related to saving faith?
And to that we have to say that, that, that saving faith is a work of God in us and we are passive in that work.
It is. It is. We are the ones who believe. But that we believe is crafted in us by God, the Holy Spirit, through the Word.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: All right, you ready for the next one?
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh yeah.
What kind of question is that?
[00:09:32] Speaker B: Can women teach in the church?
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Not only can women teach in the church, women are commanded to teach in the church. I, I can't. I'm excited to talk about this one. This is good.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: All right, well, here's, here's the setup. So I'm not gonna read the whole thing especially. Cause she doesn't want her, her name revealed. So I wanna be careful with, with this. But essentially she was asked by her pastor to teach an adult Bible study on Sunday morning where men were present. So she said no, but her pastor said, look, you've written materials that men can read. You've, you've done some other stuff. And she's taught before women and done other stuff. And so she said no, I can't do this. There's men present. I think it's appropriate for me to do this.
And so she wants to know where the line is because she's done a bunch of stuff. She's done teaching before women, she's done teaching before children, she's written some things, but now she feels like she's being pressured into teaching before men. But that's where she wants to draw the line. She wants to know where's the line.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: Yes, this is really good. So we, so I mentioned that before, that women have the command to teach especially this is Titus 2. These instructions for the older women to teach the younger women.
And it even lists the things that are being taught. It not only sets up the school, but gives the curriculum just like the older men are supposed to teach the younger men. And it also tells them what they're supposed to teach. It's really, it's really quite brilliant Reverend behavior.
They should teach the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. It just probably so happens that most women who want to teach in the church aren't, wouldn't be so keen in having that as their curriculum.
When you list it, wait a minute, we have to do that before we start teaching it. And then the young men are supposed to especially teach. The old men are supposed to teach the young men to be self controlled, that has to be taught sober minded and all things, etc. So that there's a command that is, and this underlines this positive point is that is that every Christian is a theologian and we have to continue to come back to that point. Every Christian is called to be a theologian, to be a student of the Lord's Word, and to pass on the Lord's word in our conversations and vocations that the Lord gives to us now what the Lord has not given to women and to most men. But all women are excluded from the public teaching office.
So Paul will write about this in 1 Corinthians, in 2 Timothy I. Do not permit a woman to preach or teach or have authority over a man.
So being a part of the preaching office and the public administration of the word preached, read, etc. And the sacraments distributed is forbidden from all women according to God's clear word. I mean, there's really no way around it. I mean, even those like when you go back, there's two ways that you get women pastors. One is the higher critical way that says that either Paul was wrong or it was bound by the patriarchal culture of his time. All those kind of ridiculous arguments to which we say, thank you for confirming that the Word forbids it, and also for showing your rejection of the word.
Or the other way to get women pastors is the Pentecostal way, which is to say the external word doesn't matter. All that matters is the internal call. And that overwhelms the word of God. That's just pure enthusiasm. So that's how you end up with those two.
The two ways that you end up with women in the office. And both are bad. Bad for the Gospel, bad for our confidence in Christ, bad for our reading of the Bible, bad for having a good conscience and so forth.
So we have to say that that exercise of the public office is limited to men. Now can. And here's where we get into some.
Maybe a gray area. For me, it's not gray at all.
For some, it might be. And that is, what about those instructing in helping ways? In other words, that I can teach, but without authority. And that would be like what we're doing here. You and I are. We're not teaching our congregations. We're just blasting up the doctrine on the Internet, and we're doing it in a helpful way. Nobody is required to listen to us.
Nobody. In fact, you know, we're just here to try to be helpful. So we're publishing doctrine in a way to be helpful. And that's really what. What scholarship is and what writing is. It's presenting something helpful. And it can be.
You can kind of take it or leave it as. As useful or helpful or it's. In other words, it's not authoritative. So I think writing books is the same way. And I think then it. It becomes, if there's women who have particular knowledge or expertise in particular topics that they. When they write those things down, they write books. I think that's helpful especially for other women. But even just theological reflections on theological texts, these can be helpful also to men, that you can rejoice in those. So that there's a particular. There's a particular feminine way to do theology, which we see in, like, the beautiful hymns of Hannah and Mary in the Scriptures and some of the beautiful hymns that were written by women in the church. There's a particular beauty to that way of doing theology. But it's presented not from the office. It's presented as something that comes from the office of a helper, which is the office that the Lord gives to Eve to help Adam.
So I think that the way that this has been outlined in the email is like, right on. In other words, the books are there and presented to the church, and if I am teaching those as a woman, then I'm teaching those to other women. But if I were to stand in church in a Bible class and to teach this to the men who were there, that's, that's where that, I think that does cross the line. It moves into the public office.
And so I, I think it's really quite beautiful that the, the lady who's written this question has that sensitivity. I think that's, I think she's like a hundred percent right on at where the line should be.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: Do you think part of the problem is maybe, maybe for confessional Lutheran men sometimes is that we hear that women are not to have authority over men. So we also, then we take that, we say, therefore, I can never learn anything from a woman.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
We make that leap. So we're like, well, she can't rain. That I could actually learn from because she's a woman. Which is not the same thing as, Right. We're not. The Bible isn't saying you can't learn anything from them or they have nothing of value to add. It's saying they can't have authority in a particular way, in a particular office. Which is very different than saying, well, that just means that as a pastor, I can't learn anything ever from a woman.
You know, even if she's an expert in some topic, like, I can't learn from her because, well, she's a woman. There is nothing I could possibly learn, right. Which is not what it's saying. But I think we fall into that trap. That's kind of where we, we end up, because we don't want to violate this one thing. And so then, kind of like the Pharisees of old, right, we put our fences around it and we say, well, that means I can't even listen to them talk or hear anything from them, or I can't learn something because then all of a sudden I'm, I'm giving her authority. But it's like you said, like, when I read a book, there's. I've never, I don't think I've ever read a book where I've been like, oh, okay, outside the Bible.
And then as a pastor, I bound myself to the confessions, but let's remove those from the discussion. I've never read a book and thought, this author now has authority over me because I'm reading their book.
I've never thought that. In fact, often I'm marking up my books and disagreeing and like, oh, this is great. Oh, what do they mean by this? I think they're wrong on this. I mean, that's typically how we read, right? And in fact, I think there's something very biblical about that. Because in the Bible, hearing, right, hearing is usually in the context of obedience and listening with the thought of obeying, right, you're going to believe and then obey. So you're hearing and seeing throughout the Bible, like, reading is a thing of judgment.
So even the moment you give me a text to read it is different. The way I relate to that's different than just hearing it. Especially biblically speaking. That imagery of like, now I'm seeing, I'm looking over it, I am judging it.
So in some sense I'm putting myself authoritative over it. Which is why Luther warns us when we read the Bible, we're not to do that because that's what we tend to do when we read something. We put ourselves as judge and Lord over it, and we want to decide. And Luther says, nope, you got to place yourself under the Scripture this year to hear. You're not just to read it and judge it, you're to hear it and receive it, and it's to shape you and judge you. So that's how I would maybe distinguish those things as well.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: No, that's really well said.
We have to do, because the great danger is that we would diminish the theological work that the Lord has also given to all of the Eves. I mean, this is the point. Every Christian is a theologian. All men, all women, all children are called to be theologians.
And the women should be learning as much of the Scripture and as much of the Bible as absolutely possible.
And if the Lord gives them particular insight, like, what in the world would make us so crazy as to say it's somehow invalid because a woman has learned that than a man? So we see in the Scripture this beautiful team of Aquila and Priscilla who are instructing Apollos.
And it's not like, I mean, this is just how it goes. I mean, Aquila is even, you know, it's a team, the two of them. And there's teaching that's going on there so that all the Lord's Christians are called to be theologians.
And especially when there's a humility of the office so that the women can recognize, hey, the office is not given to me. And I want to be very careful to extol the office.
But I can be a help to also to the office, even in my theological work. That's going to. That's going to be very important.
All right. That's probably the head covering doctrine, by the way. I mean, we've talked about head coverings before, how when the. The Lord would choose some people in that apostolic time to be prophetesses. And so there were women who were in the public office by the direct mandate of God, they would still have to wear a head covering to show that they were under the authority of their husband, even when they were in the public office. Now that doesn't exist anymore, that public office of prophetess. But. But if.
If the brides are being helpful, they're supposed to be this kind of theological conversation happening all the time, especially in the home. If a wife has. She. Paul commands this dealer. If a bride has a question, ask her husband at home. So that there's this theological living, theological conversation that's happening between husband and wife, between men and women. It's just. It's part of the way that the Lord wants us to always be. To be speaking of His Word. So don't be boy, you lady YouTube theologians, you know, keep digging in.
You're not given the office of public teacher. You are given the office of theologian. That's what the Lord gives to every single Christian. Every Christian is a theologian and should
[00:20:58] Speaker B: make the good confession. I mean, right. Like, right.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: And a confessor. And this is why, you know, some of the greatest martyrs were women and young women. I mean, probably the greatest martyr of all, Felicitus and Perpetua. Perpetua. Sheesh.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: I have been terrible with names all day today. Perpetua and Felicitous. And then there's St. Agnes and Agatha, Luther's two favorite martyrs. Young women who are confessing the faith boldly to the world. To the world.
This is great.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: And we're still learning from them today.
If you want to check out the stuff on head coverings, you can just search on the channel for head coverings and you'll see, I think at least twice we've discussed it before. At least twice. All right, next one is on Judge not.
Oh, what does Jesus mean when he says, judge not, lest you be judged?
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah, she says, oh, sorry. I keep answering the questions before you asked them.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: Yes, there's more.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Take it easy.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: She's got more here.
My pastor said that Jesus only meant to take care of one's own sin before helping others with theirs. My question is, how can we respond when someone cites Jesus in this case, to help them know what Jesus was actually saying.
So when someone responds to you as a Christian, says judge not you mean Christian, how can you help them understand what Jesus is actually saying in this passage?
[00:22:25] Speaker A: That's so good. I want to maybe reflect on this a little bit differently than we've done in the past, because I think we've talked about, about this passage, what it means a few times, but, but maybe to put it in the specific context, if that is being presented to me, what's going on? Like if someone says, hey, Jesus says judge not lest you be judged, what is, what's the context in which that comes to me as a command? In other words, it's because that person is judging me that I am judgy and that I'm bringing a burden on their conscience that they're trying to avoid.
And it is really important for us to recognize not only in ourselves but and also in everyone that we interact with, that most of the time what we're doing is trying to, to ease the pain of the conscience.
So the conscience is. It's like people who have chronic back pain and they're just. Their whole life is trying to figure out how to escape that back pain. We all have chronic heart pain.
We have chronic conscience pain.
And almost everyone is going about their lives trying to alleviate the pain. That's what drugs are doing. That's what alcohol is doing. That's what, that's what Islam and false religions are doing. That's what secularism is doing. That's what entertainment is doing. It's all numbing, dulling, avoiding, trying to treat falsely that groaning pain of the conscience that says something's wrong out there and in here something's wrong. And that pain is amplified by the word of God. So part of the reason that the law exists is to point, point out that pain of the conscience is that it's connected to God, that that pain is a little reflection of God's standard of right and wrong upon which we're going to be judged on the Judgment Day. So the Lord gives us this groaning conscience so that we can avoid the eternal groan of hell, so that we can seek him while there's still time, so that there's this kind of painful impulse of humanity. We're all moaning in the conscience, looking for some relief. But here's what happens is when I come along bearing the light of the word of God, just maybe because I speak it or because it's reflected in my own life, or because people know that I don't approve of that thing, then what it does is it activates the groaning conscience and it makes me feel worse. I might not be able to articulate it that way, but that's what's going on. And I want that to stop.
I want that voice of the law to cease so that my conscience doesn't hurt as bad when you're around me.
And so that groan shows up in being offended by you. And the easiest way to do it is to throw this verse at you.
In other words, it's a way of appeasing my own guilty conscience. Hey, you're not supposed to judge.
And if I. And if I can get you to accept whatever particular sin that is that is radiating with. With pain in my own conscience, then that'll. That'll help that pain go away a little bit.
So that's the internal dynamic of what's functioning there.
Now. The.
The point is that.
And I. And I would like to. To suggest, as a way to approach it, is that if I bring the law to someone just by existing, like, I don't know, Pastor Packer, this probably happens to you, like, when you're wandering around in public and, like, total strangers will come up to you and say, I know I should go to church more often.
I know I should pray more. I'm like, whoa, I'm Brian. You know, like. But, like, just like having a collar on is like a walking conscience activator, you know? And people are like. It just sort of pops up into people's minds, like, oh, here's all the things I should be doing different.
But you as a Christian, have that effect, especially to the people who know it.
Like, if there's people who are busy breaking the sixth commandment, they know that you don't approve of that. And so just you being around activates their own conscience and they flare up. Here's the point, though. It's not you.
It's not you who's judging them. It's the law of God.
You haven't. You haven't, like, sat down and said, okay, here's Brian Wolfmuller's Rules of Right and Wrong. I mean, maybe I have done that, but I do it for the kids, you know, here's the standard, you know, but that's different than God's law.
And what. And in some ways it's like, well, what do you care what I think anyways? Of course, that doesn't matter. I'm not judging you. I don't have my own kind of standard of what it means to be righteous according to Wolf Mueller. What?
That's not the case. It's God who does it. So your problem is not with me. Your problem is with God, who invented the rules of life and the world and everything in it.
And so if we can step away from the situation in such a way that they can see that the pain is not originating in me, but the pain is originating in their own conscience, this is helpful.
This is really helpful.
And so if someone says, hey, don't judge lest you be judged, I think the way to say it is, I think you're right, it's not me. I have no authority to make a judgment.
Jesus is the one who judges. What do you think he thinks?
[00:27:57] Speaker B: So
[00:27:59] Speaker A: what's his opinion about this thing that's troubling your conscience?
And also if there's a way for us to say, look, I don't want to trouble your conscience. I happen to know the only person who can deliver a good conscience. I happen to know the only way that exists in this universe to a free and joyful conscience, and I want you to have that with me. But the way is not by avoiding the pain. It's not by promoting your own righteousness. It's not by escaping the judgment. It's by silencing the judgy.
There's another way to get a good conscience, and I'll tell you about that. If there's a way to get into that conversation, that'll bear great fruit.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: I've always found it interesting because I think really what they mean is, you have no right to tell me what's right and wrong, right? Like, who are you to say what's right, what's wrong? And then again, well, it's not me, it's God. But then also I think behind that is, you're a Christian. You're just supposed to be nice, right? Which is what they think Jesus means by judge. Not like, just be nice to me. Just let me do what I want. And I've always found it interesting because the very next words Jesus says after encouraging us, if we do approach someone who's in sin, to humble ourselves and to not be hypocritical, but to confess our own sin so that we can, out of love, help this person, right, confront the sin in their life, the very next thing he says is, do not give dogs what is holy and don't throw your pearls before pigs, let's say, trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
And then a moment later he says, beware of false prophets who are actually ravenous wolves, but come to you in sheep's clothing. Like, Jesus uses a lot of, like, what they would consider judgy and not nice language in the immediate context. So it cannot mean whatever it means. It cannot mean that Christians are never to call sinful things sinful, or they're never to say evil things are evil, or they're never even to call out false teachers or wicked things. Because Jesus in the immediate context is saying some really harsh things that these people would not want to read. Because generally, let's be honest, most people who quote that verse, they haven't actually read the rest of it at all.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: The rest of it's blacked out. They've read Judge, not Stop.
And like you said, they don't even realize they're violating that because.
And if it just means simply what they think it means, then they can't judge us for judging them.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Right?
[00:30:21] Speaker B: Right. You can't do that. You can't have it both ways. If it doesn't, if it means you can't judge anyone, then just leave me alone in my judging you. Like, there's no point in you coming and talking to me. Just let it be. But the whole context lays out Jesus going after false teaching, Jesus going after wickedness, Jesus calling something sinful and evil. And in fact it comes right, the chapters before the Sermon on the Mount, which give some very clear direction and judgment concerning what's good and what's right for the Christian and what's evil and what's wrong. So the whole part of that conversation, the moment they bring it up, usually it just means they just want you to shut up.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: And I think your approach about seeing that their conscience is being bothered and attacking it that way is the way to go, because they don't really care what this, the text means.
Their conscience is burning them and they just want you to stop talking. What does Paul say? Right to somewhere? The aroma of life. Yeah, to those who are being saved. But to those who are perishing, we're in the aroma of death. Right. We stink and they just want to get rid of us because we stink and we're reminding them of sin and death and judgments. And so they want us out of the picture. So I think your approach to that's the only way that's going to help.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: There. There might be a way. And so it's good for us if someone does throw that at us. It's it. It's probably telling us them than us, but at least it's. So there's a. There is a danger that we as Christians come from above rather than from the side or below.
And that's what Jesus is talking about when he says, look, you got to take the plank out of your own eye before you go and try to scrape the speck out of your neighbor's eye.
Our own sin is amplified in our perspective and other people's sins are diminished. So if someone is using that against us, that we can receive that as a gift. I mean, those are the words of our Lord Jesus. And so we can pause and say, am I treating my neighbor's sin?
Am I more offended by their sin than by my own sin? Am I trying to, I mean, this is like the Day of atonement stuff where the priest has to offer the blood of a bull for his own sin and then the blood of a goat for everybody else's sin. In other words, like my, my own sin has to be big. I cannot come at, at my neighbor who's sinning from a, from an arrogant, self righteous position, but rather from a humble, you know this old saying that Christianity is one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread, that there's a truth to that. So I can say, I can say thank you the Lord for this. I mean, I can let that preach to me, even though it's not the way it's intended, and say as a reminder of humility. And there might be a way in like this to say, if someone says, hey, Jesus says, don't judge lest you'll be judged.
For us to immediately receive those words with joy and invite the person who's quoting them to receive them with joy too, to say, wow, that is so wonderful. Those words of our Lord Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount are so precious to me, and I'm so glad that they're precious to you.
Why, that's amazing that you can quote Jesus.
Why, why do those, why do those words mean so much to you?
And, and, and now all of a sudden they, they have to own the words, right? And the more that they can own the word of God, the more it'll do the work. In other words, they want to use it as a cliche of protection. But I'll say, all right, you gotta, if you're gonna quote it, you're gonna own it, you know, and so you can teach me. I'll let you teach me about the Sermon on the Mount and I'll let you teach me about Jesus and his perspective on judgy. And, and you might try to give me like present your nice Christianity against my nicene Christianity. We'll see and we'll just see how it goes. But you can, you know, let, you can articulate your theological perspective and, and hopefully there'll be something to gain in the conversation there as well.
[00:34:17] Speaker B: And just watched like minutes before we started recording West Huff, I don't know if you're familiar with him, the Canadian apologist who's been on Joe Rogan. Amazing guy. Great, great apologist. If you're listening to this and haven't checked him out, but he just did a thing on why you should lose arguments about God.
I was kind of making that point. Like, rather than trying to prove them wrong. Right. Step back and ask them questions to get them thinking. What do you mean by judge not right?
What do you mean by saying what do you think? What do you think Jesus means when he says that? Who do you think the Jesus is who said that?
Right. We often want to defend ourselves and jump in there and like win an argument when that's, that's not our job. Like, we can ask questions to get them thinking clearly they're already being convicted by something to want to use. Like you said, use those of protection. So maybe ask them some questions to figure out what's going on and you might get further than just, you know, rebuking them or pointing out that they don't understand the passage or whatever it might be.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Yep, it's great.
[00:35:22] Speaker B: All right.
Another one on baptism. We get a lot of these. This one's interesting though. So this is one we've actually, I feel like we've covered before. However they want to know, does baptism really actually wash away your sins?
Because they grew up Methodist, went to Pentecostal Church, and now essentially at a non denominational Baptist church. Right.
And so the concept of baptism, getting rid of their sins is foreign to them.
They always thought accepting Jesus as your savior and having faith in his death and resurrection was the cornerstone of our salvation.
They also recently learned about the word contrition and realized that this is what they've always thought repentance was.
So here's the thing though. They say they've watched most of your playlist on baptism from YouTube and still is struggling.
So that's why I put it in here, because they've watched the other videos, they've searched it out, and they're still struggling with what does it really mean for baptism to wash away their sins.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
So maybe this is helpful.
There are two things in baptism. I mean, there's a lot of things, but they're chiefly these two things. In baptism, there's the water and the Word.
Jesus says it like this. In John 3, there's water and the Spirit.
Paul says it in Ephesians 5, he cleansed. Jesus cleansed the church by the washing of the water and the Word. So the Spirit brings the Word, the Word has the Spirit. And so those two things are active in baptism. The thing that washes away sin is the Word, the Spirit.
So the water can wash away, you know, the filth of the body.
But. But baptism is a special washing.
It's the word that's connected to the water that brings this promise of the forgiveness of sins.
And so it's faith that believes the promise and has the forgiveness of sins. So this might be helpful because while we are arguing against the kind of standard evangelicalism that rejects the water and anything outside of us, we want to assert that no baptism is water applied to the body in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, that it's a true thing that the Lord does and accomplishes. We also are fighting against the Roman Catholic idea of the ex opere operato of the working of the thing itself, as if it's blessing us apart from faith.
And we have to say, no, no, no, no, no.
It's always through faith that the Lord brings his promise of the forgiveness of sins.
So the Lord delivers that promise in baptism, that promise of the water and the Word that washes away and forgives sins. We have it. I mean, it's over and over in the Scriptures. Whoever believes in is baptized will be saved. Arise and have your sins washed away. This is the be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, and you'll receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. And it's for you and for your children and for all who are far off.
Baptism now saves you, preaches Peter. In baptism, we're joined to Christ. In baptism, we're adopted as the children of God. And baptism we put on Christ, we're washed by baptism. I mean, there's so many promises that the Lord gives to baptism. But that's the point, is that baptism is that delivery of the promise. And so that basic dynamic of faith, remember that faith is that which receives or clings or holds on to the promise. Faith is the reception of the promise.
Just like works are the way that we keep a command, faith is the way we keep a promise. And so baptism saves and forgives because it's in baptism that the Lord delivers this promise.
So maybe that might be helpful. To just make that point explicit, that baptism doesn't save apart from faith, but baptism saves because it delivers the promise that faith receives.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: I always like to point out, right, Naaman's washing in the Jordan seven times, because I think it's a beautiful picture.
It's not technically a baptism, although it kind of is. Um, but it's not trinitarian baptism, not Christian baptism yet, but, right? He goes to the prophet and says, hey, I've got leprosy. I need to be. I want you to come out and do this big song and dance and cleanse me. And Elijah doesn't want to get off the couch because he's watching basketball playoffs, which are going on right now, and he says, sends his servant out to say, hey, tell him, go wash seven times.
And Naaman's furious. And it's his servant who's like, dude, if he.
If he had told you some crazy thing, wouldn't you have done it? Like, he just said, wash and be clean? Because Naaman looked at the river and was like, man, the Jordan river is kind of gross compared to the rivers I've got back home. They're beautiful and pristine. Like, why would I wash in this stuff? He says, that's really all he said, go and wash. So he goes and washed seven times, and it says his flesh is restored like the flesh of a newborn baby. And of course, throughout the Bible, right, Leprosy is a picture of sin and death, cuts people off from God. And was it the dirty Jordan water river that took away leprosy? Of course not. Otherwise all the lepers would be there every day just washing and having their sin, you know, having their leprosy removed. But it's the word of God, right, attached with that water that cleansed him, right? He went to the water and was cleansed because the word of God was present there with the water. And so I usually like to use that as an example and say God's word, right, Puts the gifts in the water, right? It's the word of God that puts the gifts in the water. And then it's your faith that receives those gifts so we don't have to pit those things against each other. The other thing I thought about, you mentioned a ton of verses as you were going through them off the top of your head. One I thought about that maybe given their background, because most of these people, most people from that background probably know the song, what can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus, right?
And Peter says in First Peter one, not three, where we often go but first, Peter one talks about the sprinkling of the blood that's been applied to us. Well, where is the blood of Jesus sprinkled on you? Where is it applied to you in that way? It's your baptism, right? The word of God is applying the blood of Jesus to you in your baptism. That's. That's how you can sing what, even that song, right? What can wash away my sin. That's. That's baptismal language, right? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. It's 100% accurate as long as you understand that it's the word of God who's putting the blood of Jesus, right? The benefit of the blood of Jesus in the water to wash away your sin. And then that's where it's at.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: I found this little article that I wrote years and years ago called Baptism. Big deal. I think if you go to Wolfmila co Baptism, Big deal. It's this. What's the big deal about baptism? And it just gathers these passages, and here's my suggestion is just to take a look at these Bible passages that are there and just go and meditate on them. And then at some point you realize, okay, there's something in my theology that does not want to hold on to these passages, that wants to diminish them or something, but I have to hold on to the word of God.
Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38. Wash away your sins. Acts 22:16. According to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5.
This is key. Who does the washing?
Jesus loved the church and gave himself for her, that he might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of the water by the Word.
This is these beautiful texts about baptism.
So just let those kind of sink in and see what the Holy Spirit is doing in the gift of baptism.
This is the evangelical constraint, because it wants everything spiritual to be inside of me. And if it's outside of me, then it has to be a work. It can't be spiritual. And in that way, we cut ourselves off from all of the saving works of God, including His crucifixion. I mean. I mean, sheesh.
And then the external preaching of the Word, the absolution and baptism in the Lord's Supper, these ways that Jesus has instituted to get his promises to us are now being artificially removed from my theological imagination because of this gnostic constraint that says that if it's external, it's a work.
You're muted, Pastor Packer. That's my favorite part.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: It always happens to me, especially when I have a cold and I'm trying not to, not to cough and be loud on the mic.
One of the things that I like to point out to people are struggling with this because he basically asked, he didn't quite ask it this way, but he basically said, I thought Jesus saved. You're telling me baptism saves? That was kind of part of his question.
And I always like to tell people like, you can't pit them against each other. Jesus saves through baptism. Like, that's, that's the thing. If you can learn anything from this, Jesus saves through the means of baptism. We're not saying baptism saves you, therefore Jesus doesn't save you. We're telling you Jesus saves you through the means, through the waters of baptism. He's the one doing the work there, not you.
And that's, that's the biggest hang up I find with people. They're like, wait a minute, you can't say baptism saves, Jesus saves.
No, I'm saying both because I'm saying Jesus saves you through baptism. Right. So that's, that's the. Seems to be the hang up for so many people. If they could get past that, I think they'd be like, oh, because a lot of them believe Jesus saves through the Word.
Right. If you ask them how's, well, the word of God. Great. Well, what's baptism? It's the word, Word plus water. So what's saving you in baptism? It's the word of God. Like keep, just keep going with that. You, you have this belief in the words. Let's apply it to where else the word's working.
And then I think maybe we could get them there.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: You and this. There's an, there's a great irony here too.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: I.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: How do we get to this, that people who, who say that baptism does not save make baptism into a work because they've made faith into a work.
And all of the people trying to protect themselves from something else saving them actually confess or believe that their own decision that their own commitment, that their own submission to the word of God, that their own faith is in fact a work.
So that in the attempt to protect Jesus alone, saving, and faith alone saving, you actually diminish it because you make your faith into a work and do it. So that idea that if baptism is a work that I'm doing is a little confession that I've actually added to grace alone and to Christ alone.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Their faith ends up being in their faith. Right. They don't See it that way, which is, again, one of the dangers, which is why the point you made about it being outside of ourselves is so important because we're not looking inward to our faith. We're looking outward to Jesus and where he promises to be for us.
Last question.
But I've. I switched it out because I realized this one, I think, is more pressing. It's on. It's on suicide.
It has to do with, can you confess? Can you talk to your pastor about your suicidal thoughts without fear of judgment? It's particularly important because I just learned yesterday that we had another brother pastor, lcms, commit suicide this week.
So this question comes up a lot. So I thought I'd bump it up here so we can answer this one.
So would someone who was struggling with suicidal ideation and was tempted by that way not be able to confess without getting reported?
How does a confessional seal work when someone is struggling with this in the present but hadn't been successful in the past?
Temptation to suicide doesn't happen in a vacuum. Would you tell the confessor that temptation to suicide wasn't a topic that could be discussed or confessed? How would you deal with someone who confessed to wanting or pledged planning or constantly thinking about suicide?
So how can you. How would you address suicide in private confession? How do you help someone who says they're struggling with suicidal thoughts?
[00:47:54] Speaker A: Yeah, great. So the. The first thing. So we'll maybe start slightly abstract, although that feels a little bit uncomfortable because this is such a personal question. But I think we'll get there. So one of the differences between the Lutheran doctrine and most other doctrines is our understanding that concupiscence is sin.
So concupiscence is that desire to sin that is corrupting our own hearts so that we want the wrong things. We desire the wrong things. We plot and plan the wrong things.
Most theologies say that it's not a sin until you act on it.
So your sinful thoughts or your sinful desires are not yet sinful, do not yet deserve guilt until you actually activate them in your life.
The problem is the result of that theology is that there's no forgiveness to be offered until you've actually done a thing.
So if you go and confess to whatever, to a person who just thinks that if you haven't done it, you haven't sinned. Boy, I'm thinking about doing this wicked thing.
All they can say is, well, don't. Don't do it. Now, the Lutheran pastor has two things to say.
He has the law to speak. Hey, don't do that that's dangerous, it's bad, it's harmful to yourself, to others, to those around you. But also the blood of Jesus extends even to your wicked desires.
So the blood of Jesus covers even all of your own wicked thoughts, that evil thought of destroying yourself, that wicked darkness that the devil's planted deep down in there, that the Lord Jesus forgives you for that and sets you free from it, which is a huge thing.
So that the, the guilt and the shame of those evil thoughts, even if they're not acted upon, the blood of Jesus is, can be applied to them. And that's exactly what confession and absolution is for, for applying the blood of Jesus to, to our conscience and our heart.
These things that go all the way down there.
So this is the first thing that the confessor can do is to apply it.
Now the second thing that the confessor ought to do is to love his neighbor such that when he sees a real danger of self harm or self destruction, that he'll, he will do all that is given to him to do to avoid it. Which might even involve, well, like at the least setting up a no harm contract, but probably even saying, hey, I can see that you're a little bit beside yourself, so we need to make sure that there's people who can help you. So can I call the hospital?
Can I take you to the hospital?
Can I get other people involved? And so forth and so on.
So that there's a way that the pastor wants to invest himself in the life, in the continued life of someone and also avoiding sin.
So this is the kind of general rubric that has to apply when someone confesses a plan to sin.
So here we distinguish between the desire to sin and the plan to sin.
Because I can confess and repent of a desire to sin.
If I confess and repent of a plan to sin, then I'm giving up that plan.
And if someone will not be persuaded from a plan to sin, then it's not really repentance. Now this might seem like splitting hairs, but this has to do with someone who comes to the pasture and confesses a plan to like poison the well. You know, this whole thing like I don't know where wells are and I don't know how to get poisoned. I mean I, I think this is kind of a funny picture, but if someone is confessing a plan to commit crime and so forth, then the, that that is actually not repentance, right? Like I'm, if I'm not turning or being dissuaded from that plan, I'm not repentant. And then that now comes into the realm of law and discipline and maybe even kind of action and legal action or whatever.
In other words, as a, as a pastor and a neighbor, I am called to prevent sin from happening. And so if someone can't be dissuaded, then by, by reason or by conversation or by the encouragement of the word of God, then that's why the Lord has given the sword to the government, to dissuade them from, from committing a particular crime.
So I think those are the different constraints that come to pass in, in that particular situation. So if someone is confessing the desire to harm themselves, that is the gospel is applied. If someone is then confessing the plan to harm, harm themselves. Now you engage, you're engaging in that plan to sin in a completely different way.
Thoughts from you, Pastor Packer?
[00:53:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I would just add, like, I would hope anyone listening to this, if you're struggling with those thoughts, you should go talk to your pastor. Go talk to someone. Don't try to fight these thoughts on your own. And don't be worried what, like your pastor or someone else will think like you. Just if you're struggling with this to the, and you're thinking about it in this way, you, you need to go talk to someone.
I know far too many cases of people who, who don't get help and we don't. No pastor wants to lose someone to suicide. No pastor wants to lose one of their members this way or one of, you know, friends of members, whoever. Like, if you're struggling with this or if you know someone's struggling with this, make sure they're getting help and as much help as you can. And even in that, like, it doesn't always go the way we want it to, sadly.
But like, you know, we're here because as pastors, we want to help you in any way we can and we know your loved ones do too. So if you're struggling with this stuff, like, reach out right away. Don't be afraid to talk about it. Talk about it.
Get, get, get your pastor, get others involved to help you.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: The devil wants us to think. I mean, it's the, there's this extreme isolation that accompanies self harm and it's a demonic lie.
But it, but all these lies start to go around. So we have to recognize the voice of the devil that says, well, no one cares. There's no way out. I'm in too deep.
There's no help.
There is help for you. And it's not only from the Lord. Himself. But in the church and in. In the family that you have, even if it doesn't look like it, there's help that's. There. There's help that's available in your neighborhood.
So there's. I mean, if things are acute 911 is the. The here comes help. And it. It might take a little while to get into the right shape that you need, but it'll. You'll get there.
There's all sorts of suicide hotlines which are. Which are also helpful to call your pastor to know that there. There is help there, that this isolating, this demonic, isolating voice is the devil and it's lying to you.
There's a line in GK Chesterton where he says that suicide is not the murder of the self. It's the murder of the universe. It's the murder of the whole world. It's that ultimate act of despair that can't see any hope.
So that we have to cling, even as dim as that light can be sometimes, of the kindness of God, of the resurrection of Jesus, of the forgiveness of sins. I mean, even when the smiling face of God seems so far away from us, we have to. We have to pray that. That the Spirit would cause that light to shine like a lamp burning in a. In a very dark place so we can hold on to that hope.
So that. So that I can cling on to it even with the. Even when it feels like I don't have any strength left to know that the Lord is for me and not against me. He's. It might look like he's against me, but. But he's promised it and he can't lie.
So we hold on to that hope in the midst of darkness.
So we have to recognize the. The devil's pushing us to despair. The devil's pushing. Pushing us to. To isolation. And we're. We're fighting against the devil to hold on to that hope and that light in the midst of that dark place.
[00:56:27] Speaker B: I don't want anything to. I think that's a beautiful way to end.
[00:56:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Like you said that we know people who are struggling with this. You're not alone. You're not by yourself. So that's great reason that the Lord has given you a pastor and neighbors and, and raise that flag up for help. And it might take a couple people, might at first. Well, no one takes me seriously.
Raise the flag and let. Let people be your helper. That's. It's hard for us, but it's. In some ways it's what we're called to do as the sons of Adam and Eve. Thanks everyone for the questions today. It's great.
Send them to Wolfmuller Co contact if you have more. Happy to Happy to see all these questions. Happy to address all these questions. So happy to be part of the conversation.
One announcement. We're going to be, oh, maybe two announcements. Well, I don't know if we're ready for the second one. I'll be at Issues Etc. Conference this June if you're interested in that.
I think that's June 11th and 12th and 13th, year 2026. If you're watching before then join us in Chicago for that. And then not ready for an announcement yet.
Pastor Packer and I are planning a men's conference in Puerto Rico in November. We don't have the dates and everything. That'll be really great. So keep an eye out for that Wednesday whatnot. We'll have all those announcements as well. So Wolfmiller co Wednesday for that newsletter and and we'll put all that stuff out there as well. Well, so thanks Pastor Packer. God's peace be with all of you.
