Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians. Welcome to the Q and A podcast. I'm Pastor Wolfmuller, St. Paul and Jesus Deaf Lutheran churches in Austin, Texas, with Pastor Andrew Packer, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, Illinois. Although, I don't know, maybe temporarily.
I saw the title of your sub stack. Heard a rumor about you, Pastor Packer. Swimming the Tiber.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: That's right, Swimming the Tiber.
Walking across. Like I told you, I challenged the Pope to a game of pickleball.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: Yeah, How'd that go?
I thought that was here. Pastor Packer, by the way, listener, viewer watcher, consumer of Lutheran theology. On YouTube, Pastor Packer sends me a text. He says, should I challenge the Pope to pickleball, what are the stakes? Pastor Packer says, if I win, then he has to become. Renounce Roman Catholicism, become Lutheran. I asked, well, what happens if you lose? I don't know. What'd you say? You have to become Roman Catholic.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: I've been Roman Catholic. And use theology and Q A for Papist propaganda. Oh, yeah, that was. That was the.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: And my response was, well, I guess it depends on how good you are at pickleball.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: I think one on one, I could take him. Yeah, he's like seven. He's like 70.
Who would?
[00:01:12] Speaker A: But he. I don't know. Who knows? He might have, like, some famous tennis player playing doubles or something.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Well, they said he wanted a tennis court, and they didn't have room for it, so they put a pickleball court in. So it's not even like, I don't know how long he's really been playing pickleball versus tennis. So I like my odds. I think I could take him.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Well, let me know how that sorts out. You got some. You got some. So how was it?
Rome?
[00:01:38] Speaker B: It was amazing. It's really fantastic.
72 hours is fast, but it was. It was great.
That's.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: You know, when we've done all these bus tours, the only time we ever got in an accident was in Rome. It was great. And our bus driver and the guy that ran into us, they were out there yelling at each other. It was just, hey, I remember sometime I'm like. I was talking to the guy and he's like, what did you say? And I. I think I said, like, hey, what time's lunch today? He's like, what? I said, what time is lunch today?
And he's like, oh, noon.
My Italian is fluent. Yeah.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: I definitely would never drive in Rome. The roads are insane. Like, I don't even know. I don't even know how you could find your Way around the roads are crazy. Like, walking them is pretty easy because you have time to, like, look at where you're going if you're trying to drive and make those turns and do. I don't know, with all the traffic and the tourists and the people, it's.
I don't want to try it.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Well, let's answer some theology questions.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: All right. This one's about a Roman Catholic question.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Now we're going to see who won the pickleball game.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: You start the propaganda immediately.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: We start immediately. My own Catholic friend.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Add a little more Mary devotion to our thing. Well, sure.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Well, we're actually going to talk about that.
My Roman Catholic friend has been pressing me on the apparition of Mary at the Our lady of Fatima event.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: There seems like there's a lot of
[00:03:03] Speaker A: evidence about these crazy villains, visions.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: Well, that's what he's asking about. There seems like there's a lot of evidence for this event actually taking place. How should a confessional Lutheran view this event?
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Okay, so first of all, everything in Rome, if we could just remember the idea of Rome is to convince you that the Bible is not enough, okay? And there's a million ways to do that. One of them. One of them is by saying, hey, we have this authoritative teaching office which has to tell you what it says, okay? It's not enough for you. Just have your Bible. Another way to do it is by all the miracles and apparitions.
Because either the miracles and apparitions repeat what's in the Bible and therefore show themselves to be unnecessary. Like, for example, the eucharistic miracles where you have the bleeding host. Well, okay, I knew it was the body and blood already.
Maybe the bleeding host is Jesus trying to tell you to let the lady commune with the cup or something. I don't know, but we knew it already, so we didn't need the miracle. So the miracle comes to us as superfluous and therefore threatens our faith by the very serpifluity of it, if that's a word, or if the miracle comes along to tell us something that's not in the scripture, therefore reconfirming the claim of Rome that the Scriptures are not sufficient and that we, the Church of Rome, have all these extra things that you also need. Which leads us almost in a direct straight line to our key question that we have of our friends in Rome, which is, what things do you require me to believe that are not taught by the prophets and the apostles?
Give me that list. Because that's where it's about.
So the prophets and apostles did not teach us to look for apparitions.
They did not teach us to look for appearances of Mary or Mary showing up in different places.
They didn't set our hearts on these things. They didn't do that. And so Rome is so happy to do them. So here's the point is that the truthfulness of the event, if the thing happened, is not the key point.
Because if it happened or not, the question is, what does it mean?
And it's that, what does it mean that we can compare with the Scriptures?
Does it mean that we. Oh, so here's.
And maybe we can flesh this out a little bit. But what does the appearance, what does the Fatima vision mean?
Like, what am I supposed to draw from that event?
And I can tell you if it's Christian or not based on what it means, right? So
[00:06:02] Speaker B: I had to look it up because I don't know much about this at all.
So what I found was a big part of it was devotion to Mary's Immaculate Heart and consecrating Russia to Mary's Immaculate Hearts.
So there's also some prophecies and some other stuff involved, but that seems to be a big part of it is this devotion to Mary's Immaculate Heart, which right away should you know. For any Lutheran who's studying their Bible, the first question would be, okay, if this is Mary who actually appeared, married the mother of God and she appeared, why is she telling you to do something the Bible says never, ever comes close to mentioning that she doesn't mention herself, that Jesus doesn't say about her? Why is there such an emphasis on this thing that is taking the eyes off of Jesus himself and the whole idea of her Immaculate Heart, her sinless heart, right, Her Immaculate conception, all that kind of stuff also should throw up a ton of red flags, like who exactly is speaking and what do they actually want you to do? Right? It doesn't mean it didn't happen like you. Right? This could have totally happened. Like from the evidence, right? These three kids saw it, they seemed very sincere, etc. Etc. Like there even some supposedly some of these prophecies happened. But that gets sketchier. It looked like because some of them seem to be added, some of the prophecies seem to be added after things already happened that they prophesied. So some sketchy things there.
But the moment you're told that the focus should be on praying the rosary, which is one of the things, repentance, prayer, rosary and Mary's Immaculate Heart, that should.
That should set off some warning bells for anyone who's listening to ask, okay, what, what exactly did they see? Who was talking to them, if it happened?
And why this focus on Mary's immaculate heart and not on turning to Christ?
So
[00:08:09] Speaker A: if some people are like, man, why are you guys so skeptical?
You are just haters of the miraculous or something like this? We remember that Jesus himself warns us. He says in the last day that many will rise up and do great signs and wonders.
This is Matthew 24:24 from the Bible.
You remember the Bible?
We say if anyone says to you, look, here's Christ, or there, don't believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders, to deceive if possible, even the elect. See, I've told you beforehand. So there's a prophecy, and the prophecy is that Jesus is warning about great signs and wonders. So we do not deceive, deny the existence of great signs and wonders. But our, our instinct, taught by the Lord Jesus is that when a great sign and wonder appears, that we say, oh, it's to deceive me, that's, that should be the first thing that I think. I don't doubt that it's a sign or a wonder, but I think, oh, it's to deceive.
Could there be a sign and wonder that's not to deceive? Okay, yeah, but it's, it's going to be a private one, not a public one, because that's how the in there that it's all private until the Lord reveals himself on the last day. So I don't. So it doesn't come to me with coercive authority, nor does it come to me with, to share with anybody. If Mary wants to show up and tell me something, praise the Lord, but I don't. I'm not going to tell it to anybody else because it's, it's. To me, the public revelation is the revelation that the Lord speaks through the prophets and apostles and that's what the church is bound to.
So this whole thing, I mean, you have it on the Protestant side of things too, with like these visions of heaven and all this.
I don't need to know that Jesus is in heaven, you know, from someone going there and coming back. I knew it already from the Scriptures.
And you now come back either with extra information which suppresses the sufficiency of Scripture, or confirming information which tempts me to take my faith from the word of God and put it on you and your story.
All of it's bad all of it's spiritually dangerous. Very, very spiritually dangerous.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Well, isn't. I mean, Paul warns us in Galatians, right? Like, even if an angel from heaven should show up to him and preaching a different gospel, then let the angel be anathema, right? Like so even if that happens, if it's taking away from the gospel, then it's to be anathema that is damned to hell.
Isn't that, isn't that what Paul says?
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah, he might have mentioned that the, the, that, that. By the way, the Galatians one is our whole.
Like, how can you possibly go against Rome, Mother Church?
Well, Galatians one we're.
And it's not like Jesus never said anything about working, about worrying about false teachers.
I'm read. I got up my. You know the, the cheat book for the Lutheran fathers. I just published this on the website a couple days ago, what they say about the fallen angels. And there's a section here on specters which is really interesting.
Specters or ghosts. Some of the dogmaticians mention also specters by which the evil spirits have frightened men.
The scripture teach the evil demons make a mock of men with ghosts or Specters visions.
Isaiah 13, Isaiah 30, 13 21, Isaiah 34, 14, Wisdom 17:3 and 4, Matthew 14:26, Luke's 24:37.
Specters are not the souls of the dead. See Luke 16:29 and Wisdom 1:3. It doesn't mention the Job passage here, which is also true. Remember how was it Elif, not Eliphaz, one of the friends of Job had the ghost visit him in the dream and he talks about it. I mean, let's not get our theology from the ghosts.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: This is.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Chemnitz talks about this. This is where the whole delusion of purgatory comes from. Because people saw ghosts. There's no. This is not ghost story theology. And lest we laugh at that like, ahaha. All the ancient people were so gullible, they were seeing ghosts. Have you turned on the tv? Now it's all ghost hunters and, and ghost specter stuff. And it's an amazing thing that people who don't believe in God or anything spiritual still believe in the ghosts. There's so many ghost stories around anyway. It's all magical thinking and spiritually dangerous.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: All right, this next one's very different.
I'm gonna have to say something.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Wait, you didn't respond. You didn't hardly say anything. Were you.
Are you like bound not to talk about against Fatima?
[00:13:11] Speaker B: That's right, I already did.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: You better say something bad about it.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: I already said it was damned to hell if it was taking away from the gospel. I think I was harsher than you are, wasn't I? I just use. I just used less words.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: That's a miracle in itself, I'm sure.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: All right. I have to say the word concupiscence several times, so bear with me. All right, all right. What is the difference between temptation and concupiscence? After all, concupiscence is itself a sin. And Christ was tempted during his humiliation. At the same time, we know that he sinned. He didn't sin in any way. How then is it possible to experience temptation without having concupiscence?
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Great question. So concupiscence is that inclination to sin or that desire to sin which clings to our flesh after the fall.
So we have affections that are natural affections, human affections that were there before the fall, but after the fall, they're all directed, like the mind also, and the heart, and everything is directed towards sin. So that desire for something evil or wicked is there, and it is a sin itself. But. And it's a temptation to sin.
So remember, we have these kind of four levels of activity in human activity. The doing, the speaking, the thinking, the feeling. And that concupiscence is down at that root feeling level, which shows up in thinking, which then manifests in speaking or doing.
And so our sins are sort of growing up in that way. So James talks about sin being conceived in desire and so forth. That's what. That's what we're talking about.
A lot of people will say, look, it's not a sin until it works its way out of you. So if it's just a feeling, it's not yet a sin, or if it's a thought, it's not a sin if you don't act on it, or if you don't speak it or act on it. So that they say, inside, not sin, outside sin. And we say, no, no, no, no. This is that beautiful Lutheran doctrine of concupiscence that says it's a sin before it escapes.
Before it escapes the inside of you and gets its way out. It's still a sin inside, just hadn't broken out into the outside.
So concupiscence is both a sin and a temptation to further sin.
It belongs to all of us.
It's good that we don't act on it, but that doesn't mean that it's not yet a sin and guilty in that way. Our flesh is an ally with the world and the devil, who are always pushing us to sin in every different way. So the devil wants to push our flesh to want the wrong things, push our mind to think the wrong things, push our lips to speak the wrong things, push our bodies to do the wrong things.
And so that enticement to do the wrong thing is what we normally think of as temptation.
And it comes from the world of flesh and the devil.
The question is, how could Jesus have been tempted, incited to sin if he didn't have a sinful flesh?
And the answer is, his temptation was external, so the devil was tempting him, the world was tempting him. His flesh was not tempting him.
And I don't know if, I mean, some people say, well, then it's not a real temptation. I think it actually, if understood, rightly intensifies the temptation that Jesus felt, because everything about it was horrific. There was no way that he was able to agree with the temptation that was being brought to him with the allurement to sin. So it's completely coming from the outside. And yet he was in every way tempted like we were, yet without sin. So that that temptation never found a root in his own emotions or desires, that he never wanted the wrong thing, he never wanted the right thing in a wrong way. Those were completely rightly ordered, I think, again, understood rightly, and it amplifies the temptation. And one more thing, and then your thoughts are going to be really helpful in this. But when the Bible talks about temptation and when the theologians reflecting on the Scriptures talk about it, it means more than we normally mean. So I think when we talk about temptation, we normally mean the allurement to sin, the enticement to sin. But in the Bible and in the old theologians, temptation just means trouble.
And part of that trouble is the allurement to sin. But we could be tempted by sickness or tempted in affliction.
Temptation has a broader meaning in the Scriptures.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: Do you think part of this is it's hard for us to comprehend not having sin, Right. So it's hard for us to imagine.
There's no way for us to imagine what it would be like to be tempted without the inclination to actually want to do the thing.
We have no frame of reference for that. So when we then read about Jesus being tempted every way we are, yet without sin, we're like, well, wait a minute.
That. How can that be? Because he doesn't have that inclination. And I think part of it is we just. Part of it, we just have to humble ourselves and say, okay, the Bible says he was tempted in every way we are, yet without sin, even If I don't fully grasp how that could be, I mean I think your explit nations is spot on with it being external versus internal and all of that. Even if after that we're like, you know what? I still struggle with this.
At the end of the day, part of it is we just have to humble ourselves and say, I, I have no idea what it's like to be Jesus in that position because I will never be in that position.
And so we just have to take God at his words. Which goes back to our previous question too. Right. We just have to trust God's word that says, okay, this did happen. It was a real temptation. It's very similar. Right.
Same arguments used about his death. Well, it doesn't really count because he knew he was going to rise again.
Right. So it's kind of like, ah, just kind of like a joke death because well it's. No, he's literally suffered hell on the cross and did literally die. So it was a real death even if resurrection was coming. And I think the same thing here, even if I can't comprehend what that would be like for Jesus, because I don't, I'm not in that position, nor will I ever be.
That doesn't mean it wasn't real. And the Bible describes it as real. And you see it played out as real.
When the devil does tempt him and you see it in the garden where it seems like the devil's, you know, tempting again in a different way. You see it time and time again, just some point we just have to say, okay, I may not be able to comprehend this, but God says he's tempted in every way I am, yet without sin. So he was.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: And that's where I kind of end up on this because I do think it's one of those things where I think guys get too.
It's easy to get lost in the weeds, I think, on something like this and ask questions that don't maybe have answers.
Like at least not the answers we would like because we want it all to be very clean and neat.
Okay, well it doesn't have that, so you're gonna have to just get over it. I think in one sense, Yep, yep, yep.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: He, Jesus is able to endure an intensity of temptation that would destroy us. This is the other.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Right.
Yeah. And like you said, I think it probably was worse for him than it is for us.
But again, it's in ways that we can't really comprehend.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: It's. It is. Here's the helpful thing to reflect on. I think is if we can think how.
Jesus, because Jesus was perfect, he was more human than we are.
We. We only have the experience of being fallen humans, which is for now. I mean, on the resurrection, we'll get the experience of being fully human, the fallenness being removed. And it'll be marvelous because we'll be more. After the resurrection, we will be more human than we are now.
For us, in this life, we think that to be human is to be sinful. And that's a mistake. It's a category mistake. It's wrong. It has to be. And we have to think about that very carefully because my sin is not part of my humanity.
So when Jesus experiences our humanity, he is more human than we are because he is without sin.
When we sin, we're acting more like animals or demons rather than human beings.
And so Jesus being sinless makes him more of a man than I am, more like humanity than I am.
That's. But that's. It's. It's totally beyond our experience because all we know about humanity is the fallen part of.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Also, it's the same question that comes up with Adam and Eve, right? Like, why did Adam sin if he didn't have the sinful flesh that wants to sin?
And I think there's different ways you can answer that. But the end of the day part of it is too.
I don't fully understands, like, how that all plays out. Like, I don't. How could they give in? Because. So the shot against Jesus is. Well, it wasn't really a temptation because, you know, he didn't have anything desiring to sin. But then with Adam, the opposite question is asked, like, well, why did he do it then? Like, why did he give into temptation?
So we get hung up on both. Both sides. We're not happy when it.
The temptation is real for someone who clearly gave into the temptation but had no desire, sinful desire to want to do that. And then with Jesus, we flip it on its head and say, oh, well, that doesn't count because he. He didn't have that sinful desire, right? So we're not happy no matter how it plays out, right?
[00:22:58] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: I think it's the answer.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: This is this mystery. It is a mystery.
That's the answer. Someone came, they said, pastor, I got a hard question for you. And I said, I know the answer. It's a mystery.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: That's right.
Someone.
Someone sent me that after one of our videos. They just. They're making fun of the Lutheran mystery thing again. All right, here. Here's a Here's a different one.
What do you do when you're mistaken for a Roman Catholic priest in public?
All right, so how would you handle being confused with a Roman Catholic priest in public? I know it's common for Lutheran pastors to wear clerical colors like Roman Catholic priests.
A lot of pastors, including ones from my parish, even wear cassocks, which is viewed as very Roman Catholic to some.
There are plenty of stories where Roman.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: You look like you're in the matrix when you wear a cassock.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: There are plenty of stories where Roman Catholics will approach priests in public and ask for absolution or a blessing. If one were to approach you as a Lutheran pastor, thinking you are Roman Catholic priests and ask for absolution as an example, or, heaven forbid, call to you for last rights if you're near an accident, how would you handle that situation?
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah, do it. But I. So I. So this is. I gave someone absolution. A Roman Catholic guy an absolution at a wedding a few weeks ago. It's great. He's like, father, can you hear my confession? I'm like, yeah, I'm Lutheran, but, yeah, this will be great.
I'm like, I got a surprise for you.
And this will happen in the hospital all the time. Hey, Father, could you come and visit? Lutheran pastor, but I'm happy to come and visit. And sometimes they'll say, oh, okay, I was looking for a priest, but other times it'll be great.
And to come and to.
And to minister to the baptized is what you're doing, you know, like you. Like you would to any stranger.
So if you can do it, it's great. I remember the. The best confusion story was when we were. We were at Lupita's Mexican Restaurant at. After Isaac's baptism, my youngest boy, and I think I was holding him in his baptismal gown, and the waiter came up and he says, oh, Father, is that your baby joking around? And I said, yeah, it actually is. And he goes, oh, Father said, it's all right. I'm. I'm Lutheran. I get to be a real father, you know, So I think this is, you know, when someone recognizes you as a pastor and there's a way to serve.
There's a way to serve. It's great. There's a way to serve and to speak the gospel and to speak clearly of the redemption that we have in Christ and to speak clearly of the gifts that the Lord gives in baptism.
This is great.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: I've had a couple occasions where that confusion thing caused problems. Like, one time, I didn't realize it. I think it was a Friday in Lent, and I was at the hospital in Durango, Colorado, and it's a Roman Catholic hospital, and I was eating a burger in their cafeteria, and people were kind of looking at me weird. I was in my color. And I didn't realize until after I left lunch. I'm like, oh, that's why they were staring at me. And then another time, I was on the elevator and this couple with a newborn were going up the elevator together. I'm like, oh, I have. I think at the time I had, like, six kids. And I'm like, oh, I have six kids. And they looked at me like, what?
Six kids? And then they glanced at my hand and saw the wedding ring. And I think they were. But I never even said I was a Lutheran pastor. I just, like, let it. Just let it go.
But I think the most common thing I have is not people asking for absolution or last rites. Like, I've had numerous occasions where they just want you to pray with them.
And I'll say, oh, just so you know, I'm a Lutheran pastor. You know, I'm happy to pray with you. But just so you know. And I've never had any of them say no to that.
One time when I was in Pagosa Springs, a woman had drowned in the river, and the family had been. They were from New Mexico, this Hispanic family, and they were trying to call the Roman Catholic priest, and no one could get ahold of priests. And one of the ladies there, who was my neighbor whose kids weren't in our school, but she wasn't even a member, she said, my pastor will come. So. So she called me, and I went down and ministered to the family because they couldn't get ahold of a priest just to pray with them and just be with them until.
Until things settled down a little bit. So I've had numerous things like that where people just wanted prayer or some kind of pastoral care. I've not ever had anyone, like, come up to me randomly and ask, like, the absolution thing or something like that. But usually it's prayer or blessing, things like that.
So. And I'm happy to do it. But I always say first, hey, I'm Lutheran, just so you know, if you'll take a blessing or prayer from a Lutheran, happy to help.
I've never had anyone say, no, thanks, dude, but I've had a few people
[00:27:52] Speaker A: turn me down, but especially for, like, last rites.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Because we don't have. I. And I'll. I Might say, hey, I. I can't do last rights, but I have accommodation of the dying. I'm happy to come and pray and.
And minister. But. So in that case, you know, I've had people say, well, no, we'll call the priests.
So. But yeah, I think, you know, we. There's a ministry to the baptized and there's a ministry of the baptized.
This is important too, so that, you know, a lot of times people will call on the pastor to pray, but we thank the Lord that all Christians have access to the throne of God. All Christians are called to that ministry of prayer and petition for their neighbor, and that we can all bless one another and that we can forgive sins too. That every Christian has that it's the peculiar authority which Christ has given to his church to loosen, to bind. And so when the Christian hears a sin confessed, they can say, hey, Jesus died for that. That sin's put away. God doesn't hold it against you. This is the joy that we.
That all Christians have to care for each other.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: All right, this one's on the Lord's Supper.
I don't think we've answered this question before, so I thought it would be good. We've answered a lot in Lord Supper, but not. Not this particular one.
I'm a former alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in over a decade. In a situation such as mine, would it be valid to use a substance that doesn't have alcohol in it in order to partake in the Lord's Supper?
[00:29:18] Speaker A: I. So I. So I want to answer the necessity question before the validity question, because I think we can take the validity question away. So here's the danger. Jesus took bread and he took wine. That's what he used. And we want to use bread and wine because of the words of institution.
And so we don't want to leave any room for doubt to come in there.
And I don't think we have to in this case, because I think there's a way to just use very, very diluted wine. This is our solution that we will use at St. Paul. You can use very, very diluted wine. So it is wine of such a dilution that there's no effect. You know, there's no possible sort of reaction to it.
And then it takes away that question.
And I think that's the direction we want to move, is how do we take away the question? I think it's a little bit trickier when you get people who are so sensitive to gluten, any kind of gluten, that they'll have a catastrophic reaction to it. And then because it's not possible to have diluted bread, you know what I mean? I mean, maybe I just don't know of it. I don't know how to get there.
So we do have a provision for a specific kind of gluten free bread that we're able to use for distribution for those people who have that extreme sensitivity. But I just think we can avoid the validity question because there's practical ways to have wine that won't be of any trouble to someone who has alcohol disease or alcohol reactions or alcohol problems in the past.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: What do you think if someone's conscience is just so burdened because they've had so many struggles with it that they just say, you know what, Pastor, I can't right now. I can't do wine in any form, even diluted. Would you just have them forego partaking and tell them, hey, you know, like, I'm not withholding it from you. It's different. Like if you mentioned a previous question this week, like, it's different if the Roman Catholic priest withholds the blood of Christ from someone, like says, you can't have it. Is it a different thing if someone says, for whatever reason, hey, I can't do that right now because they're still receiving Christ's body. Right. They're still receiving the benefits of the supper.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: I'd say on the other side, that's exactly. I mean, so. Yes, exactly. So come and receive the Lord's body and forgo the blood until the time when you can have it. The same on the other side, like if you have this extreme reaction to any sort of gluten and we don't have provision for it, is to take the Lord's blood, receive the promise of the forgiveness of sins, and skip the bread which is the body.
And that's fine for kind of a pastoral exception to this. I don't think we want to get into the business of bringing juice into it or anything else other than wine just because Jesus hasn't used it. Hasn't used that. I did have, I did have a professor who said, well, you could just, you can make the juice yourself. You can just press a grape and it's on the way to wine. It just hasn't started. You know, fermentation starts immediately, but it hasn't showed up in any actual alcohol. That I guess. Okay. And that would be the difference between like grape juice, where the fermentation has been chemically prevented, versus pressing grapes so that it started already, but it hasn't shown up.
Right.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Muster. Mustum. Right? Something like that. Like, where you. It's the early fermentation process, so it's not technically alcohol, but it's, like, on its way to. Yeah, it's nothing's. Nothing's been interfered with. So technically it's still. It's called, I think, in. In Latin. Right. The word must have comes from, like, calling it like.
Like young wine.
So that's, like, where they get that from. So.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: So you could make provision for that. And I actually, one time I was at a nursing home, I went to visit someone, and I got there and my wine is empty.
Knucklehead. So I go into the kitchen and I'm like, hey, you guys got any wine? Like, no. I'm like, well, do you have any grapes? Like, yeah, so I made some grape juice there for newly pressed wine, I suppose. And I went back and like, well, because your pastor's a moron, this is what we. This is what we have to do.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: That's what we got.
[00:34:15] Speaker A: But.
But I think we want to. So we're trying to be as close to the.
To what Jesus has instituted as we can be to avoid the questions creeping in.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: I mean, that's one of the main concerns, right? Is we don't want to do something that then causes them or others to doubt what it actually is.
Right?
Because if their conscience is already burdened by this other thing, introducing something else to burden their conscience isn't ultimately going to help. It's just going to compound the problem.
Now you've created a new burden, conscience, a new way for it to be burdened rather than for actually giving it help in that. And sometimes in those cases, over time, people can get to the point where they are then ready to take the diluted wine or maybe just the wine itself. Like, it may just be a way to. To be working with them in their weakness until they can get to the point where they feel like, all right, I'm ready for this now.
[00:35:12] Speaker A: The testimony of some alcoholics in the congregation is really helpful where they say, look, there's going to be no poison in the cup which Jesus has prepared for me. So I'll be like, look, I don't drink any wine. But the supper. And they'll come to the supper and they'll have a sip, and they'll rejoice that the Lord gives them the body and the blood, and it doesn't trouble them there.
As a pastor, I want to provide that as an example, but not as a sort of coercive Rule like, hey, if you're a true Christian, you can take the wine and not fall into sin or whatever. I don't. I don't. I just don't want to. I don't want to present it like that pastorally, but I. But the example of those who have struggled with that and have come to that conclusion is particularly encouraging, I think, to people in that situation.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we want to help them along that way. Not because the last thing I think a pastor would want is to do or say something to someone who's struggling with that that would cause them not to want to come to the supper at all. Right, right. That's probably, like, the absolute worst thing that could happen for them, because if we believe it's going to give them strength to fight that temptation, like in. In real life, not just. Not just there in church.
All right, this one's a sad one, I think, but I think a lot of people feel this way. So guilt for not raising kids biblically.
Now they're not saved.
We weren't Lutheran, but raised our younger three in a Protestant fellowship, adult baptism, etc. Then they went to boarding school and college and fell off the wagon. Luther convicts me in large catechism. How can we overcome the guilt of failing our kids? What can we say to our adult children to get them to return to Christianity? We always pray for them.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: I think that every.
Every Christian has people in their family or very close to them that have left the faith or not. Christian kids, grandkids, brothers, sisters.
And there is tremendous sorrow and guilt and shame about all of this. And. And this is probably the thing that hurts Christians most. When I talk to people about what their fears are and what their sorrows are, this is the. The most sorrowful thing, I don't think.
Okay, let me make an analogy here.
A lot of times when someone dies, the family, like, the kids will feel guilty, like, well, I should have spent more time with dad, or I should have loved them more.
I should have been a better friend or spouse or something. There's just guilt. And we sort of put off our guilt for our failures because we think, well, I'll try to make up for it. But then when someone dies, you run out of time, and the normal response is, no, no, you were a good son. You did everything you could have. Now, I know that's not true, actually.
So the answer that we want to speak is no, that guilt is right.
Every single parent could have raised their child better.
They could have done more to teach them, to bless them, to instruct Them, to love them, to care for them.
And this is true if you're a good parent, like a good or a bad parent.
Every parent has guilt for the way that they've raised their children.
Every husband should be guilty for the way that he's loved his wife. And wife should be guilty for the way that. Because we've never done everything that we could have done.
That's why Jesus had to die for you.
That's why Jesus had to die for me.
It's a true failure to love as I am commanded to love.
And the only way out of that guilt, the only door that will lead out of that place is not the door. Well, you did your best, or you tried your hardest, or you didn't know any better or making other excuses.
The only way out of that is to know that.
That Jesus knows all that you did wrong and he died for it, to forgive it and put it away.
And then after the knowledge of the forgiveness of sins comes the knowledge that Jesus, who loves your children more than you do, decided that you would be the parent for them.
So that he set it up this way, knowing even all these mistakes that would happen. And he did. And he gave you to your kids because he loved you and he loved them so that the Lord is the one who's put all these things in place.
It's then helpful then, when we go to the Scripture, to realize that this is not a foreign experience, even to our Lord Jesus, whose brothers didn't believe in him.
That's an amazing thing, that Jesus own brothers did not believe in Christ Jesus.
And not only did they not believe in him, but they were militant unbelievers. They tried to encourage him to go to Jerusalem so he'll get arrested.
There was a hatred for Jesus and his brothers, which is astonishing to think of.
And so the Lord Jesus knows what this is like. It's why he says a prophet is not accepted in his own hometown. To know that evangelism in the home is the most difficult. And speaking law and gospel in the family, that's the most difficult place to speak it.
So Jesus knows, and he's sympathetic to it.
So that you repent.
You can repent of your failures to raise the kids like you ought to. We all should repent of that. But we should be absolutely sure that Jesus forgives you for it. Absolutely sure.
And that he puts away that sin.
It's not an excuse to do poorly as a parent for the kids we have. Of course not. But when we look back, we know that those failures are covered by the blood of Jesus, and that the Lord is working now in the lives of your children to call and gather and enlighten them and to bring them into the true church and sanctify and keep them in that place so that he can be with them forever. And he hears your prayers. I don't have a Bible verse for it that the Lord especially hears the prayers of the parents and the grandparents, but I think it must be true. He hears those prayers for your children and he's answering them.
And you might not see it, but the Lord has given us that call to trust, that he's doing that work, to call those who have wandered from the faith back to those promises that he's given.
So that's just a law and gospel kind of application to the situation. There's other practical things. But I know, Pastor Packer, you think about this a lot.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think even for parents, I know there's parents out there, too, feel like, man, because we've all seen it. We've seen families where the parents didn't seem to care much about raising their kids in the faith. And then the children grow up and they're really strong in the faith. And then you can see parents, too, who did seem to care about it and tried. Right. And then their kids reject the faith. And like you said, both sides still feel the guilt, though, of, like, I wish I would have done more, could have done more.
But when you're dealing with, like, individuals, like, we don't have control over those things.
I think it was a wise pastor, you, who told me at one time, right. Like, children are not a mathematical formula. Like, you can't.
You can't guarantee if I do X, Y and Z, that I'll get this at the end. Like, there's no. There's no 100% guarantee of any of those things. And so I think Lutheran Psalm 127 is very helpful on this, right.
He says in there that we do the best we can in our vocations, and even says, you do it as if there is no God. That is, as if it all depends on you. You work hard, you do your best, and at the end of the day, you take your efforts, whatever they are, including, you know, as the failures and all the other stuff, and you bring it to God and say, God bless this as you will. And. And I think that's how we. How we should live all of life, whether it's being a parent or a husband or whatever it is, a pastor. Like, we strive and we know we failed but we bring it to the Lord. We ask forgiveness, and we ask him to bless our efforts and then trust that he'll do with that whatever he sees is best.
The question they asked too, about how do we get them to return?
We always pray for them. I mean, I think I always tell people praying is the place to start. Right? Pray for them.
I think especially too praying. You mentioned that it's hard for, you know, a prophet to not accept his own hometown. Like, I think praying that other people will come into their life to point them back to the things that they did know, that you said that they did have at one time, like that people will be brought in outside of the family.
It's, you know, I think always good to pray. Praying that the Lord would change their hearts and bring them back is always good to pray.
But also I've also encouraged parents from, from time to time, like, it depends on the situation, but sometimes writing out a letter to their. Their children, you know. Right. Especially if it's this adult children we're talking about here in this, this situation, like writing out a letter to them expressing your love for them, your prayers for them.
I recommend writing it out just because one. Like text messages.
It's always, you know, that's. That's probably too informal for something like this. Even though people use text for everything.
And oftentimes if you're just talking to them or call them and try to talk to you about it, it can get heated really fast and go directions you didn't intend it to go. And you can lose control of the situation quickly. Whereas if you write a letter, it gives you time to think about what all things you want to say, gives you time to pray about what you want to say, set it off to the side, come back to it. Maybe you change things, maybe you realize you don't like it at all and start over, whatever. But then also gives them time on their end to receive it and read it and think about it as well.
I don't obviously think that's like a, like the answer that's gonna like, work, but I've seen it on many occasions be at least helpful to maybe even getting conversation going again. Or at least letting them know, like, your love and care and concern for them. And that's why you care about this.
Because oftentimes in families it seems like it just turns into a fight really fast.
Or that your children think, oh, you don't love me anymore because I'm not this. And you only loved me because I was a Christian and now I'M not a Christian now, you don't love me anymore. And so I think it can help deal with some of those things in a very practical way and may help, may not be the thing that helps right away. But I think I've seen it have some good effects with various families.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: I think it's also. It was Dr. Kleinig who, he was teaching us about the long distance miracles of Jesus. And this is our example. Like you're praying for people who aren't there.
And he suggests to take a note card and to write the names of your children or those you're praying for and put it in your pocket. When you come to the Lord's Supper, you're bringing them, you're almost literally carrying them to Jesus by having a physical thing that you're taking to the altar.
This is also really good. And to trust this, it always comes back to this, this confidence that the Lord loves our children even more than we do and that should settle our hearts.
They are the apple of his eye. So there's some hymn that talks about Carrie at some point, Carrie, my dear bride was afraid of.
It was like, what happens if we die and leave our children uncared for?
And that the hymn that says that talks directly about that. Like, hey, the Lord is the one who's caring for them. And to know that faith, this is maybe the theological point and we touched on it, but that faith is always a miracle. I cannot create faith.
The Lord God, the Holy Spirit creates faith through his word, when and where it pleases him.
So no matter what I do, if I do everything perfect that I'm called to do in love, it does not create faith in the heart. That's the work of the Holy Spirit.
So our call is to love.
It's the Lord's work to create and sustain faith. So we bring the word, but the Lord is the one who uses it.
So that's also on him. And these prayers, we don't have to hold back. Like, Lord, why did you.
What's going on?
This is your child. Why are you letting them wander into these self destructive thoughts and ideas and whatever.
So the Lord's willing to hear those prayers too. In fact, he wants to hear those prayers.
[00:48:17] Speaker B: That is it for today.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: Oof, man, we covered a lot.
You answered that last one a little bit too Roman Catholic for me.
You're like a suburb. You listeners, we got to listen very carefully to see if the subversion is here, you know, to see if Our
[00:48:34] Speaker B: lady of Fatima is speaking through me.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: Thank you as always for being along for the fun. Pastor Packer and all you who are listening and watching, send the questions to Wolfmuller co contact and ask your pastor because we're probably not going to get to it for a couple of years. But thanks for sending the questions.
So happy to.
So happy to have you. As part of the fun, don't forget to subscribe to Wednesday Whatnot, the free weekly newsletter. I give away a free book to the Wednesday Whatnot subscribers every but the last four months. The person I gave it away to, they didn't even write back. I think they thought it was spam or something. So if you're subscribed to Wednesday Whatnot and I send you an email that says, hey, you're the free, that's. That's a real deal.
Or if you're a spammer and you're looking for ways to spam people, I guess I've just given you a good option, but so that's great. Also, Pastor Packer is going to Israel next summer. Is your trip full?
[00:49:31] Speaker B: It's not full, no. We have a good number signed up, but it's not full. So there's still room for you if you want to come.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: If you're interested in checking out, know Pastor, he'll probably want to go to all the Roman Catholic sites.
You can go with Pastor Packer. That's next summer. That'll be really great. So thanks everyone. God's peace be with you.
