Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians. Welcome to the Theology Q and A podcast. I'm Pastor Brian Wolfmuller, Pastor of St. Paul and Jesus Staff, Lutheran Churches, Austin, Texas. Joined by Pastor Andrew Packer, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, heard a rumor about you. Happy birthday.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Yes, last week. Last Thursday.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Man, oh man, it's great.
How old are you?
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Getting old. 47.
I'm an old man.
I haven't caught you yet though.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: All right, let's answer some of these questions while you still got time.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: I can still see them, so I have the glasses.
The first one's about the Old Testament feast and why don't we as Christians keep those?
So I realize that we do not obey God's commands in order to be saved. But I have struggled for a while with why we as Christians don't actively celebrate the major scriptural God ordained festivals.
I understand that Jesus was a fulfillment of these things and we have forgiveness of sins and life through his death, burial and resurrection. But I also see the value in Yom Kippur as a day of atonement and Passover for remembering the great works of the Lord, etc. In light of Christ's work. Passover especially confuses me because Exodus declares that it is to be kept for all generations.
We have Christ who is over all, in all, and through all.
But why would having a seder meal in light of the Gospel be something that we shun or ignore when explicitly states to keep this practice for all generations?
In fact, I've attended a Christian Seder meal with a couple insertions for recognition of Christ, but it was considered a fun optional activity versus something that should be more standard.
It came from the mouth of God, just as the Ten Commandments. I would love clarification as I am confused.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Great question. Oh man. So, and this is a note, an obscure question in the New Testament. I mean, it's one of the things that they're wrestling through. And you can see it specifically as the New Testament Church wrestles through this with the question of circumcision, Sabbath, and especially the dietary laws. Basically the ceremonial law in the Old Testament, which was the liturgical laws and how to be clean. We'll remember. Maybe this is helpful to remember that cleanliness and holiness are related, but not exactly the same.
So it's a different standard of righteousness. One is of moral righteousness, the other is of ceremonial righteousness and access to the temple. So you could do things that would make you unclean and those would be good works like having a baby or like burying your Father, those are good works that make you unclean. So different kind of standards that are there. But that ceremonial law was really how to handle the blood that was going to cover over the commands.
The ceremonial law is centered in the sacrifice. And that sacrifice has to do with this preaching that God accepts the death of another in my place. So, I mean, I think from the Garden of Eden, when the Lord takes an animal and takes the hide to cover the shame of Adam and Eve's nakedness until the very last animal that's slain on the altar before the crucifixion of Jesus, every single one of those is preaching that the Lord will accept the death of another in my place. But it was preaching Christ. And when Christ comes, he offers himself as the sacrifice once for all, and it brings an end to all the other sacrifices. There's no more need for the preaching of the sacrifice to come because the sacrifice has come and been accomplished. So all of those ceremonial laws that have to do with cleanliness and the life of the temple are now undone by the death of Jesus. And we see it explicitly in the word new that Jesus uses when he institutes the Lord's Supper. He says, this is the New Testament new covenant. It's the Greek and the Hebrew word mean either covenant or testament, and in some ways is both. But it's a New Testament. It goes into place at the death of the testator. And. And that New Testament then replaces the old.
So when Jesus, after they celebrate the Passover meal, that's the last Passover meal ever authorized, because Jesus then says new. And when he says new, he makes the old obsolete. That's the explicit teaching of Hebrews 8. And so this is when you ask why we do this, why the New Testament Church does not celebrate the Old Testament sacrifices or the Old Testament feasts, remembering also that all of those feasts needed the high priest. They needed an animal to be sacrificed, they needed the altar, and they needed the temple. None of those things exist anymore. But it quotes Jeremiah 31, 31. Behold, the days are coming when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt. They didn't continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For in this covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws in their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. And then the writer of Hebrews goes on to say verse 13 in that he says a new covenant. He has made the first obsolete.
Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So that new covenant that was promised by Jeremiah, Jeremiah 31, 31, and following that was then set up by Jesus in the institution of the Lord's Supper. That makes the old covenant obsolete.
So all of the things of the old covenant are obsolete. Now the question, and the beautiful question is, how can it be like the Lord said to Abraham, I'll make an everlasting covenant with you. And he gave him the covenant of circumcision. The Lord says, at the Passover, this will be a perpetual covenant for you.
So how can we say those things can come to an end? Well, the only way a covenant comes to an end is if the one who made the covenant dies.
It's an amazing thing to realize that when, for example, the Lord has Abraham fall asleep and he alone goes through those carcasses that are cut in half at that covenant ceremony, that we think, well, that covenant will never end because God will never die.
But he in fact does so that when God dies, when Christ is crucified, that old covenant comes to an end.
So as long as the Lord lives, that covenant is in place. But the Lord now is died, and now his resurrection brings about the new covenant.
That's what he's talking about in his death and his resurrection. Why baptism, the supper and the absolution are so connected to the death and resurrection of Jesus. So I think that's the biblical answer to why we don't celebrate those feasts.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just going to add, I think if we understand that Jesus is the fulfillment of everything of the Old Testament, that he is. I was just preaching on this last night from Galatians 3:16, right. That Abraham does. The promise of Abraham isn't to seeds plural, but to seed singular, that is Christ. So that all the promises are fulfilled in him. He is right, Israel reduced to one. He is the totality of everything promised.
And he's greater than every. I mean, he's. He's.
Once you have Christ, the other stuff, you look back and you're like, oh, it was just pointing forward to it. I should have never got caught up in it. Like, I shouldn't have just. I don't want to stay with that stuff. Like, why would I go back to that?
Which is Hebrews argues about that too, right? Don't return to these things. You have Christ now. So every washing of the Old Testament is now replaced with baptism. So if you're baptized, you've received the fullness of what all those things are pointing to.
If you have the Lord's Supper, then you have the fullness of what every single meal of the Old Testament was pointing forward to. Like it was all in anticipation of the Lord's Supper. So if you have the Lord's Supper, you don't need a Seder meal, you don't need any of these other feasts that the Old Testament had, because you have the fullness of it. And you're actually receiving Christ's body and blood with the bread and wine. So why would you need the pictures, the things that were pointing forward to this great thing?
So once you understand that, all of it's just pointing to Jesus and leading up to Jesus and that now you're getting even the fullness of all those things, plus even more. Right. It's even greater than we could have possibly imagined that you're like, well, of course I don't. I don't have to do those things anymore because Jesus fulfilled all of them in his death and resurrection. And now I have one washing and one meal, and they're greater than. Than all the previous ones combined.
Right? That's. Once you got that, then the rest of it, you're like, oh, no wonder we don't have to do that anymore. Or even the phrase.
Right. For like all generations. Well, yeah, the Lord's Supper is a fulfillment of that and it's better. And we're going to have the marriage feast of the land for all eternity. So in one way, you're getting it plus a whole lot more. And you're getting it forever. Right? Not just here on earth, but on the new Earth as well.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, we do so much, and this is right. Of saying, hey, Old Testament, New Testament, same God, same doctrine, same gospel, same salvation by grace through faith, etc. It is good for us to circle back and remember, but they are different covenants, they are unique. And one was pointing forward, the other was pointing back. So we have the same Gospel, but we have a different delivery system. In the Old Testament, it was being delivered by the priesthood at the temple through the blood of the sacrifice. In the New Testament, it's being delivered by the word, preached by baptism, by the Lord's Supper, same Gospel, same Jesus, same Father, Son and Holy Spirit, same law and gospel, same command and promise, but a different system established by the Lord.
So a different liturgy, the same church,
[00:09:52] Speaker B: different liturgy, all Right. Next question.
The this one's on the LCMS Lutheran Church Missouri Synod call process.
And getting at Is a pastor seeking a call a bad thing?
I am going to reword this one just so, like, there's no.
I don't want anyone to inadvertently get thrown under the bus here. So I will just try to reword this the best I can to get the main point across.
Basically, they're new to LCMS and don't quite understand our call process. Okay.
And what they want to know is if this is a divine call and you have a divine call and you start actively seeking another call.
They compared it to, like, synergism. Basically, in their question, if you are near, you know, if a pastor can kind of have this divine call they say is divine and then start putting feelers out to see who else might want them.
One, they're wondering, what kind of example does that set for the church, right, about loyalty, steadiness, faithfulness, etc.
And are we just using God's will or divine call as a protection for this kind of thing?
So how should we understand that? Is it wrong for a pastor to seek a call?
How do we understand it to be a divine call? Seems like those are the two driving questions behind.
Behind this.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Good, good question. Let's talk about it a little bit. So here's the maybe theological background that's super helpful to me, and that is there's a distinction between an immediate call and a mediated call.
And an immediate call is where God directly says, you're my guy. In the Old Testament, you're a prophet. Boom. In the New Testament, you're an apostle. Pow. And when the Lord immediately calls someone, he also speaks through them so that they are those who are authorized to speak and to write on behalf of God. It's one of the reasons why we call the Scriptures the prophetic and the apostolic word of God, because it's given to us by those who are immediately called by God. He also most often supports that immediate call, that direct call, by giving spiritual gifts and especially the gift of miracles to the people that he called. So Paul from, for example, to prove his call from the Lord Jesus to be an apostle, even though he's one called out of order, he is given by God the ability, the power to perform miracles, healing miracles, he raises the dead, he performs miracles, even his shadow, etc.
Is it Paul's shadow? Paul's handkerchief is performing miracles. So the Lord gives them those sign gifts to confirm the direct call.
Now, that's different and distinct from a Mediated call, A call that goes through the church or another institution that the Lord has put in place. So in the Old Testament, you had the prophets called directly by God, and then you had the sons of the prophets. Those were called. I mean, they went to seminary and they were trained up under the prophets, and they were sent out to preach the words of the prophets, but not their own words. They didn't say thus says the Lord. They would say, thus says Elijah or thus says Moses.
And the same thing is true in the New Testament. You have the apostles called directly by God, but then the apostles lay hands on men and set them in place to preach. Not thus says the Lord, but this is what the Scriptures say. In other words, they're not getting direct revelation from God. They don't have that direct call. They have a mediated call to speak the words that have been written down in the Scriptures. And that's the call, Pastor Packer, that you and I have. That's that mediated call.
And the indication of that call is not that we perform miracles, but rather that we teach the words of the prophets and the apostles that were called by God.
So the efficacy and the authenticity, the validity of our own ministry is tested against the words of God.
And so the Bereans, for example, received the word with joy, but they tested to see if it was true. So this, when we're talking about pastors, this is what we're talking about, this mediated call.
And we understand that the Lord works through the church or other institutions, but chiefly through his church, to put men into the office. But there's all these other things that are there. Like, for example, a man has to be above reproach. A man has to be able to teach. A man has to be the husband of one wife.
A man has to be not given to drunkenness. The lists of the requirements for pastors and teachers in the Scripture mean that it's not a sort of mystical direct call, but it's a call that's mediated through wisdom and examination and conversation and so forth, so that I can be confident. And every pastor has to have this confidence that the Lord wants me to preach. He's put me into the office. I have this call. And so it's good that I'm doing this. But that doesn't mean that everything that I'm doing in the office is good. It doesn't work the other direction.
It doesn't mean that I can't teach falsely. It doesn't mean that I can't do something wrong. In fact, I can do that. And That's.
Boy, that's an even worse sin. When I sin in the office, it's an even kind of harsher breaking of God's law than someone who sins out of the office.
So I think it's an equivalent thing, for example, to marriage. When husband and wife are married to one another, can we say that God is the one who joined them together? The answer, Absolutely. What God has joined together, let no one separate. It's holy matrimony. It's a divine work.
But does that mean that human wisdom and deliberation and careful consideration was not involved? No, in fact, it is. So that those two things are working together in the call.
So that's the kind of basic doctrine. Now, how do we apply that to the circumstances that we have? We'll maybe reflect on that a little bit, but let me pause and see if you can flesh that out and make sure I didn't miss anything or you can correct my false doctrine.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
I'll bring open charges immediately after we finish recording. No, I think that's right. I think it's that that distinction is helpful because I think sometimes the way we talk about the divine call, we almost do.
The way in our circles it can be talked about is almost as if it's not mediated, Right. That it is kind of some kind of direct thing, not God working through human means. Because if we forget that it's working through means, and I think we forget that on the other side, on the pastor side, there are very practical decisions that go into that as well. Like, yes, it's divine call, but if I was called somewhere and I look at the call documents, and I'm like, there's no way I can provide for my family.
Like, there's, you know, just no way for me to do this. Like, humanly speaking, I don't know how maybe a single guy can make that work, but there's no way I can make that work. Like, that's not saying it's not a divine call, but it's also saying there's. There's other factors that go into a pastor making a decision beyond just this is a divine call. Because as a pastor, we already have a divine call. So now we're discerning between two calls, which means you have to make some very practical decisions. Walther talks about some of those things, right? Like, does it give you a greater way to use your gifts for God? Which I think is. Again, but that's still subjective. Like, you're still weighing things that you don't fully know the answer. To.
So Walter gives a lot of things like that, like how you're using your gifts, how you're going to be in service to the.
The local church as well as the larger church, those kind of things. I think all those are useful.
And at the same time, though, like, it may not be wise for, like, maybe you're. You have a child with like a severe medical condition and you need to be close to a major hospital and the place that called you isn't anywhere near one.
That's like a practical issue.
But you can only really think that way if you know that it is mediated and that I already have a divine call, right? So then when you have two, it does get confusing, I think, even the way we talk about it, right? To say that I have. And pastors post this, right? They get a call and they're like, I now have two divine calls. I have a divine call to this congregation and to this one. And people will say things like, well, did God get it wrong?
But really we step back and say, well, you have freedom in Christ to choose. God's giving you two options now, and now you get to pick one. And that decision is going to be based on a whole lot of factors beyond just the fact that it's a divine call, because you already have what divine call. So what are all the other issues involved?
Because we have to remember too, pastors are also human beings, right? We always come across that way. Some of us aren't great at coming across that way, but we actually are human beings.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: It's kind of like a theological robot.
Your sins are forgiven.
So this human factor is really interesting because it also, I think of.
So a call is not like a marriage in this way, in that a call is not a permanent thing or not of necessity, a permanent thing. I mean, it can be. It's not like a contract. You're our pastor for three years. We're going to see how it goes. And I mean, it puts you in office and that office doesn't have a terminus, but it's not meant to be a now we're pastor and congregation matched up into eternity till death parts us or something like that.
And what's really important about this is, for example, Paul and Barnabas, who got in a fight basically, and then they decided, well, let's go different ways. And Paul took Silas and Barnabas took Mark, and they went different ways. And that was. It was not good that they were arguing about this, but it was good that they could then say, well, let's. In our human wisdom, just let's separate. And it actually ended up dying, doubling the mission that was happening there to the glory of the name of Jesus.
But it sometimes happens in a situation where there's two pastors or two congregations or a pastor, most likely a pastor in a congregation, and they're just kind of in a conflict, and it's okay to say, well, one of us is going to have to go. And it's easier for the pastor to leave than it is for the congregation.
All you guys go find another church. I'll stay here. It's just. So the pastoral flexibility is actually good. It's one of the big problems that's actually baked into the specific ministry program is that those S and P pastors cannot take a call to another place. And so there's no pressure release valve.
You're our pastor, and you're our pastor here until you die or quit or whatever.
So that there's no sort of human way to say, well, just for whatever reason, let's kind of go this way. So for a pastor to seek a call, it's not. I mean, it's an indication that there's something going on.
It depends on the reason. I mean, some pastors could think, well, you know, I've done.
I've done what I can here in this place, and this congregation would be better served at this point by another man.
Or it could be that there could be conflict, and we're kind of locked into some sort of intractable dispute, and we've done our best to get through it, and maybe it's time to move on. It's blocking the ministry and move on. All these kind of practical concerns can come up, and that doesn't negate the fact that it's a divine call, that the Lord is the one who institutes the office, who puts men in the office, and who promises that through the preaching of the Word, he would save those who believe. Through the foolishness of the preaching of the Word, he would save those who believe. And that the Lord will have throughout the world people who are giving out his gift of baptism and the Supper. So that's the divine nature of the call, and it doesn't conflict with all these other kind of human things that are entering into it.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: I think one thing maybe that helps churches who are looking for a pastor. I see this pop up online from time to time, like we've been looking for a pastor for so many years, we can't find one. I think there'd be a variety of reasons for that. One of them, two of the biggest Ones I see time and time again, though, is one the church is often offering a very low, like, pay for. So, like, a man with a family, like, it's just not feasible for them to take that call, right? And then they call a guy with a family and he looks at it. It's like, I don't know, how would I. How would I do this, right?
Or, like, if you want someone to move across the country, you probably need to cover their moving expenses, because a pastor can't afford to go take a $5,000 or more hit right, to move someplace else.
Like, they just. Most pastors cannot afford that. So a lot of times I see very low moving expenses or very low pay, or especially if you're trying to call someone with a family, like, and no, the pastor's not trying to get rich off of his job, but he does need to provide for his family. He's got to take care of people. And so. And sometimes I don't think congregations realize how low it actually is. Or, for example, like, the housing market, like, they've been in their town for 20, 30 years, right? So they've been locked in at way lower rates. And you call a guy today, and his rate's gonna be two or three times higher than yours for a loan, for example.
And he looks at homes, he's like, man, those homes are really expensive. They're like, no, housing's cheap here because you've had your loan forever.
Things like that. Those are just some practical things I've seen discussed online that I'm like, these are the things I hear guys saying when they get calls time and time again. On the practical side, it's not usually them trying to be greedy or them trying to, like, I don't know, like, some weird motive or something. It's usually just like, man, I can't take care of my family, or I can't afford to move there, or I can't find housing, or I can't afford to pay for the moving expenses. Whatever it is. Those are the things I see come up all the time. So for churches looking, look at those things and be really honest about what it costs to live in your community, what it costs to get a house in your community, and what it would actually cost for a man with a family to move there. Like, really know those things before you send off call documents.
Districts could help with that a lot, too.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: Yep. Yep, it's great.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: All right, next one.
What do you do when prayer makes things worse?
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Let's hear about this one. Wow.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: All right. I'M you have to be. Again, even when people put, like, don't mention my name. Like, you know, if I give too much details, even without their name, it's probably not hard for someone involved to, like, figure it out. So I'm gonna try to be really careful. Okay.
For a number of years, for a very long time, this person has a situation with her family where they have his parents and his wife do not get along.
And he's prayed about it. And it seems like over this time, the more he prays about it, the worse it gets.
And so he's given up praying for that thing because he feels like if I pray about it, it just makes it worse. But what's happening now, too, is his confidence in prayer as a whole is starting to slip because he feels like he prays and praying makes the thing worse.
So what do you tell someone who feels like their prayers are making the situation worse with no hope seemingly, of it getting better?
[00:25:50] Speaker A: I think so. This is not an uncommon experience.
So the practical theological thing that every Christian wrestles with is prayer. I mean, it just. It's constant. And at least for me, when I go to confess my sins, this is the thing that's, like, right there at the top confessing constantly my neglect of prayer, my laziness in prayer, my hesitancy in prayer. And the devil. Here's where the devil tries to be a theologian, too.
And the devil, whenever the devil shows up to do some theological work, it's connected to prayer with stuff like, well, if God knows what you need, why do you need to ask him? Which is the opposite of what Jesus says, right? He says, your Father knows what you need before you ask, therefore, pray.
But the devil comes and says, your Father knows what you need before you ask, therefore, why pray?
So our prayers are constantly being assaulted. It's important maybe just to remember this fact that the Lord, whenever he acts in the Bible, it's almost always in answer to prayer. And he has promised over and over to hear our prayer and to answer it and deliver it.
I will hear your prayer, and I will deliver you. Psalm 50, verse 15, which is the kind of the famous promise prayer that the Lutherans rely on. But it's always good to remember that every prayer starts as an unanswered prayer.
And it will be an unanswered prayer according to the Lord's will, as long as he has determined that unanswered to be helpful for us.
So it starts as an unanswered prayer, because if we had it, we wouldn't be asking for it.
And it is according to the Lord's provision for our prayers to remain unanswered so that he can do his work with us. This is why Jesus, whenever he tells parables about prayers, he tells them so that we would be persistent and not grow weary. That's the specific introduction to the prayers. For example, in Luke 11, Jesus told these parables so that we would not grow weary in our prayers. And what are the parables?
Remember the widow who goes to the unrighteous judge? And he doesn't fear God, he doesn't fear man. He's just a wicked guy. But she keeps going to him demanding justice. And finally he gives her justice because he's just tired of hearing from her. And Jesus says, pray like that.
Or the man who has visitors come in the middle of the night, and he doesn't have any food to give him, so he goes and knocks on his neighbor's door and he says, I'm. The kids are asleep, we're asleep. Come back in the morning. And he just sits there and knocks.
He'd sit there all night and knock until his neighbor, out of frustration, will give up and give him some tortillas or whatever. This is how Jesus is teaching us to pray.
And here's where the asked seek, knock comes in, Luther. In fact, here's maybe the most practical piece of advice for the person sending in the question is take a look at the Worldwide Bible class videos or audio.
Because we're studying the Genesis commentary, and it's basically a commentary on prayer and suffering. I mean, that's all Luther thinks about and talks about, prayer and suffering.
And he says, this is what the Lord Jesus is teaching us when he says ask, seek, knock, that first we ask for what we need.
Lord, please make peace and reconciliation between my parents and my wife.
And if the Lord doesn't do that, then we seek in the Scriptures to see if we're asking for the right thing. And we see in the scriptures that there's often conflict between parents and spouses, but that the Lord desires for families to live together in peace.
That the Lord, he's promised that he hasn't brought peace on earth, but that he does give us the fruit of the spirit of peace. And so then we knock. After we seek and know that we're praying for the right thing, then we knock. That is, we just keep praying for it. Lord, you've promised that the fruit of the spirit is peace, that the peacemakers are blessed. So make me a peacemaker, make my wife a peacemaker. You've promised these things. You've promised in James chapter one, Lord, you've promised to give wisdom to all who ask, so give me wisdom to know how to bring about a reconciliation or whatever, so that we're. We're asking for the Lord to keep the promises that he's made.
And this is the Christian call to pray.
Even when we don't see the answer.
Especially when we don't see the answer. We're like Jacob, holding onto the foot of Jesus and saying, I'm not going to let you go until you bless me. I'm not going to let you go. Like the woman who follows Jesus, the syrophoenician woman who follows Jesus into the house, even though she said, the crumbs aren't for you.
I'm not here to feed the dogs, but the lost children of the house of Israel. She goes into the house and says, says, just give me the crumbs. This is the example that Jesus has given in prayer so that we're fighting against the temptation.
All of us are fighting against the temptation to grow weary in prayer.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Or even sometimes this is related to something we talked about. I think it was last week where people might ask their pastor to pray because they think maybe he's closer to God so he'll get a better answer or whatever.
But I can tell you as a pastor, there have been times where, for things I've been praying for for years, where I'm like, maybe it is my own wickedness. Maybe if my wife just prays for this more. Right. Like, you wonder. I think everyone struggles with this. Like, man, it does seem to be getting worse sometimes, too. I think we have to acknowledge, going back to something you said about this is maybe it getting worse is the way the Lord's answering the prayer.
Right. Like, we don't. We don't see the big picture. We don't understand how he's working all things together for our good. Like, it could be getting worse before it gets better. Maybe not. We don't have that. You know, we don't have a promise regarding these specific things. But it can be that the thing is getting worse because God is working and it has to get worse before it gets better. And we just can't understand it or see it or know that. And that's. And that's part of our problem. Right. Is that we can't actually see what God's doing.
We can't always see what God's doing in the situation.
Like we can't see what he's doing in the hearts and minds of others. We can't see how he is working. And so to us, it may feel like nothing's happening, nothing's being answered, and maybe lots of things are happening. You're just not privy to them yet. It's not time for you to know yet. And those things are going on.
I'm actually teaching on the persistent Widow from Luke 18 for Bible study this, this Sunday. So I was thinking about that as well and. Right. She just doesn't give up. She's just, she's annoying. She annoys the guy to the point where he doesn't want his reputation to be ruined, he doesn't want to be embarrassed. So he finally just relents.
And the promise of that is that, you know God, God is going to do the right thing for you.
Right. God's going to do his best. And we just, we have to trust him. That's part of what CFW Walther says about prayer. When God says wait, he's teaching us to depend on him, to keep going to him in prayer even when we don't see the result, even when we can't see it working out or happening. We're learning to trust him. We're learning to cling to Christ. We're learning to pray more. We're learning to just keep going to him without giving up. We are learning to persevere. We're learning endurance. We're learning all these things that God's teaching us. And so maybe more is going on than we think or can understand and we should trust him and his promises. Like, I think the reason the person mentioned he's giving up on praying in other parts of his life.
And part of it seems like because he's put so much pressure on God must answer it in this way, in this time, the way I want it answered versus sometimes our prayer just has to be, I don't understand how you can do this. Your will be done, right?
We don't always know what's best. We sometimes pray for things and God says, you know what, you think that'd be the best thing right now, but really this thing's gonna be the best thing right now and really get it. Giving you that right now is not what's best for you or the situation.
And so you gotta wait. And as someone who's waiting on things to be answered, like who's been. I. I mean, I've been praying, this person's been praying for much longer on this issue than I've been praying for some issues. But over four or five Years now.
So I get it. Like, I get the frustration. I get the wanting to give up, but I also know what God promises. I was thinking about St. Monica, right? She prayed for 30 years for her son to be converted.
And that, you know, that's a long time to pray. 30 years is a really long time to wait for a prayer to be answered.
And yet she persisted, Right? She prayed.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: L. Luther talked about how Joseph in prison in Egypt was praying that he could just go home and see his father. And the whole time the Lord was setting up a throne in. In Egypt, he couldn't have even prayed for that. I mean, he had no. He had no capacity to pray for that.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: And so this is how the Lord is working sometimes, especially when it looks like he's not answering. When he's not answering the prayers. So God bless you and all of us. I mean, we are fighting against this weariness of prayer.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: All right, next one's on baptism. Actually, the next two are on baptism. All right, first one is they recently joined a small LCMS church in a small town.
And it sounds like they're new to LCMS as well. And something happened that makes them question some things about their own baptism.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: So they. They saw some adults and infants and get baptized, and they're wondering, how is it different for an adult versus an infant? And should they who are baptized many years ago in a Presbyterian church, should they be baptized again?
Because they're an adult now and they didn't really remember it or understand it as a child. So this has them questioning their own baptism, but it's also questioning what's the difference between an adult and a child being baptized.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Great question. So there is no difference.
It is the same. There is one baptism.
That's what Paul says. One baptism, one God and Father of us all. In Ephesians 4, let God be true and every man a liar. So baptism is the Lord's work to wash us. That's the beautiful baptismal text from Ephesians, chapter 5, that Christ washed the church and cleansed her with the washing of the water and the Word.
And so it's the Lord's work.
A baby or adult, no matter. It's the Lord's work of washing.
There's an awareness of the thing that's happening that is a lot more profound with adults. There's an awareness of faith that oftentimes is more profound with adults versus children. What the old theologians called, how do they say it?
Reflective faith feeds reflectiva or something like that.
The faith that's aware of itself.
So you can have faith and not know it.
Like, because you don't have the capacity to, or because you're. You're asleep or whatever.
If you have the capacity to know what's going on inside of you, you have a developed spirit or conscience that's actually able to kind of comprehend that stuff that's going on inside, then you real. Oh, man, I believe in Jesus. But a lot of times that faith happens before you realize it and then you realize it.
And so there's a difference between saving faith and reflective faith. Has to do with our capacity to know what's happening inside of us. And it's one of the big confusions of evangelicalism is that it mistakes reflective faith with saving faith. It equates that so that you have to know that you're a believer to be a believer. That would exclude children and the mentally incapacitated and everyone taking a nap.
So we want to make that distinction. Not a separation, but a distinction.
And we want to quickly say, look, if you have the capacity to know what's going on inside of you and you're a believer, you ought to know it.
The spirit testifies with your spirit that you are a child of God. That's the confidence that we have. But if you don't have the capacity to know what's going on in the spirit, that doesn't exclude the Lord creating faith there.
Okay, so we rejoice in the gift of baptism, especially if it was given to us apart from our choosing or going or whatever. If we were carried to the gift of baptism by our parents or by our grandparents or godparents or whatever, we praise the Lord. If the Lord waited to call us to holy baptism later to where we could remember what's going on. We praise the Lord, but it is the same gift and no need to be re baptized. In fact, there is no such thing as rebaptism. There is only one baptism.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna try an analogy. This is not my thing. This is your thing, but I'm gonna.
So the thing. Okay, yeah, you're good at analogies. I. This isn't my thing, but I'm on. I'm on very thin ice, but we'll see how this goes.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: I'm ready.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: All right, so if you have a father and their newborn child and someone generously comes and says, look, I don't want either you to ever want for anything again, and gives both billions of dollars, right? It's yours. It's free. Here it is.
The Father is going to understand that differently than the newborn. But if the father does a good job raising the child, that child will delight in that gift. Right. As it begins to understand what that gift is and means. And as they get older, they appreciate it more and more and. But they still have the gift. They both got the gift, but how they understand the gift at those times in life is going to be different.
And I think, I think baptism is very similar. Like the adult is doing this knowing fully what it's receiving. The child doesn't quite yet know what it's receiving. It doesn't mean they don't receive. It just means they're not able to one, articulate fully what they've received. Right.
That's why I'd say there's one difference, because I do think a child does have faith in Christ even though it can't articulate it because Christ is working faith in their heart. But they have the same gift. They just can't talk about what they are going to do with a gift or how they've received the gift yet they're not able to. So that's my, I think that's great.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: I would adjust one word and I think it's important though, so the adult fully understands. But I, but. And that was.
The adult understands more, more fully, but none of us fully understand what gift is given in baptism. And this is one of our arguments against the kind of adult only baptism which they call believers baptism. We have to reject that by out of hand, by saying, look, we, we practice believers baptism, we don't exclude children from being believers. That's, I mean, that's big.
But if someone says, well, don't you, you got to wait to understand what baptism is. And my response is, well, then you would never be baptized. None of us can, can actually fully understand what gifts baptism gives. I mean, I think in eternity, in the heaven, in the new heaven and the new earth.
And however we understand years in eternity, we'll still be reflecting on the depth of the love of God that is expressed by baptism so that we understand better than a child, more than a child. But I understand more about baptism this year than last year.
And hopefully, Lord willing, next year will be even more than this year. The gifts that the Lord gives in baptism.
And so we never fully understand the depth of it. But it's also important that when Jesus holds a child before us and says, here's the example of faith, we got to really take that seriously. Is that a child?
Okay, so here's my analogy.
I might have told you this before. Say you're driving down the street, you're five years old, and you're in the front seat of the car. Oh, backseat. Maybe you have to sit in the backseat now. And your dad said, hey, jump in the car, Brian. We're going to go get a Frosty at Wendy's.
So I jump in the car, and off we drive. And the window's down, and some guy on the street says, hey, where are you going? And I said, I'm going with my dad to get a Frosty at Wendy's.
And he says, how do you know that? He says, well, dad said, get in. We'll go get a Frosty. And the guy on the sidewalk says, well, you must have a profound faith and trust in your dad's word to jump in the car with him to go get a Frosty at Wendy's. And you say, we're going to get a Frosty.
Like, you don't even know that you have faith. You just know dad said Frosty. And you said, let's go. I mean, you don't know that you have faith. You just know the voice of your father, and you know that the words that come out of the father's mouth are for you.
You just embrace them and that it's called faith. You're not even aware of. But this is how it is. I mean, even children in the womb recognize the voice of their parents.
That's such a profound picture of what faith is. My sheep hear my voice and they follow me. So that when we are called to be Christians, we just know that God gives commands and gives promises and it's for us.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: It's so beautiful, all that to say, you do not need to be baptized then either.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: Right? You are baptized.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: You have it. You are baptized.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: We should actually, though, say this. So it is good to go back. Say you left the church and you're coming back, or you're coming to the Lutheran church and the pastor should ask you, are you baptized? And you're like, well, I think so, but it's good to go. Say, hey, mom, dad, was I baptized? If mom and dad aren't around to go to the church, hey, is there a record of my baptism? And here's one of the problems of feminist theology theology, or of like, oneness Pentecostalism is that they mess with baptism by doing all this kind of nonsense. So you're baptized, like in the early aughts to early 2000s in some ELCA church on the coasts. And you're like, I don't know if they baptized me in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or some goof like in the name of the mother and the daughter and the Great Spirit or something, and then you're like, I don't know. So it's good to go back and get your baptismal certificate, look at the records, etc.
And if there's some question like we were moving between the Methodist and Baptist church and like we were Baptist when I was a kid and then we switched in middle school to become Methodist and I'm not sure, I don't remember being baptized and maybe they assume that I was and whatever, then it's fine to go and be baptized. In other words, if there's a question mark to say I desire the gift of baptism and I'm just not sure if I had it yet, so I'm going to receive it not as a re baptism but as a baptism knowing that the Lord knows and kind of in that context it's wonderful. So that's the practical side of things.
[00:45:23] Speaker B: All right, another one on baptism, infant baptism, faith and exorcism. Oh, so this is talking about something you wrote. So your summary of the Scriptures teaching infant born and pre born faith is very helpful resource and tells us that infants absolutely can believe the promise of salvation given in baptism. Baptism.
There does seem to be some tension in the Lutheran perspective though. When the Lutheran fathers baptized babies, they would first exorcise the child, adjuring the unclean spirit to depart and make room for the Holy Spirit. At the same time, the Lutheran sang of their hope in God's mercy and grace given through His Word even before baptism.
Can you speak to this tension?
[00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
So I should look this up. Why don't you speak to this? I'm going to look for this line in the large catechism where Luther says faith is given before or if not in baptism. In other words, we don't know.
So I'm going to look for that while you talk about this.
[00:46:24] Speaker B: Well, I also had a follow up question for this too that I'll ask because this I saw, I guess Repersonation Presses substack had an article, I think it was a week or two ago on how I can't remember which Lutheran father it was went to get rid of the exorcism in the rite of baptism. So maybe the first question we can answer is because people might be wondering about this.
There is in Luther's right, which is in our agenda as well. You can use it as an option. It's not in the hymnal, but Lutheran pastors Can use it. You do say, depart, unclean spirit. Make room for the Holy Spirit. Yeah, so maybe we'll start with that. What is that? Why is that there?
And then, why would a Lutheran pastor do that? For a baby? Are we saying that the baby is demon possessed? Is that what we're saying? Yes, I think that's the question.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So here's the understanding is that we are born children of wrath. And so the understanding is that part of our fallen nature. If you can think of it like, you know, you've got the soul, which is like the tabernacle, and you've got the holy of holies. That's your spirit, and it's there. And that is possessed by the devil and the demons, apart from the Lord's Word, removing them.
So part of our being born as unbelievers is being possessed by the devil.
Man, we got to get better at this because we normally think of, like, demonic possession as this kind of violent manifestation where people's eyes are rolling back and they're floating or whatever kind of crazy stuff happens in the movies. It is important for us to know that the spirit of every unbeliever is possessed by the devil. And when he possesses them, their goods are at peace. There's a kind of peacefulness. It's a twisted, deceptive peacefulness that exists in the conscience of every unbeliever. So that I mean to say it clearly, everyone, every single unbeliever is spiritually possessed by the devil.
And that's the natural condition of man, that when we're born, we're born sinful and unclean, and we're not the children of God. We are like Jesus says of the Jews in Jerusalem in John, chapter eight. He says, you are of your Father, the devil.
That is our natural condition. Children of wrath.
And so the Lord has to transfer us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and his Son, so that every conversion is an exorcism.
And especially when there is an infant baptism. This is that kind of expression of conversion. So we have that in the address. We're all born.
Well, how does it say it in the baptismal address?
Can you think of the words off the top of your head? We were all born.
It's terrible that I can't think of it off the top of my head. And it's terrible that someone stole my hymn. Ah, here it is.
So even in the normal baptismal rite, we are lost forever unless Christ claims us as his own.
That's the language that's there.
I'm going to talk about it here.
The Word of God also teaches that we're all conceived and born sinful and are under the power of the devil until Christ claims us as his own, we would be lost forever unless delivered from sin, death and everlasting condemnation. But the Father of all mercy and grace has sent his Son, Jesus Christ to atone for the sin of the whole world, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. And then the minor exorcism would come in there. So our understanding of baptism is this conversion from death to life, from darkness to light.
Has it happened already, invisibly, by the word of God, before the person comes to baptism? Well, in fact, in some ways that's assumed by the baptismal rite that says, do you believe in Jesus Christ?
But maybe it doesn't happen before. Maybe it happens in baptism. This is the.
The whole thing kind of working together so that the Lord is working in baptism to bring us into his family.
[00:50:29] Speaker B: Well, this also goes. I think this question is getting at too, like Luther's advice to women who have had miscarriages. Right. That the church has given this child to God through prayer. And then we trust that God is merciful and that though ordinarily God is bound to write his means, it doesn't mean that. That God can't give a child. Right.
Those. The gift of faith apart from those means.
We're saying this is how he ordinarily does stuff, not that he must always do it that way, which is something the other various Lutheran fathers have talked about with, like children. Right. Tying the womb. Because I think some people want to say, well, they heard the word in the womb.
Right. Okay. That you can do that too. But also like God. God can because you've prayed for that child. Right.
As Luther says, and give them to God in prayer as the church and as the parents. And you can trust in God's mercy for that child to rescue them, even if you're unable to baptize them. So that's where that confidence comes from, is that we're looking to a merciful God who's made certain promises to us, and we know that he can do things even if they don't work out the way they're ordinarily supposed to work out. Like ordinarily, you want the child to be born and then baptized. Well, if they die in the womb, that wasn't even a possibility. Right. So Luther's wrestling with that and showing how God is faithful even when we can't do what we'd ordinarily want to be done.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: Here is the section I was looking for in Large Catechism. So it's Large Catechism, Part 4 on Baptism, the Infant Baptism Section, Paragraph 57. So I. This whole thing I would commend to everybody. It's so great. But Luther says, so we do likewise in infant baptism. We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes, and we pray that God may grant it faith.
Well, which is it? Yes, but we do not baptize it for that reason, but solely because of God's command. Why? Because we know that God doesn't lie.
It quotes Titus 1, but I think it actually should be Romans 2, I and my neighbor. And in short, all people may err and deceive, but God's word cannot err.
So that we bring the baby to be baptized because it. Because it believes. We bring the baby to be baptized because in faith. Faith in baptism. Faith is given. The answer is yes, absolutely. And that even baptism is working. That exorcism and faith in us all throughout our lives, even afterwards.
So that our baptism is always expelling the devil. Our baptism is in some ways, this kind of perpetual exorcism. And it's the thing that. I mean, when Jesus goes into the wilderness to fight the devil, it's there about his baptism. I mean, you are my son in whom I'm well pleased. And the devil comes. This is what the Father says to the Son in his baptism.
And the devil comes and says, if you are the son of God. If you are the son of God. So that baptism is kind of encapsulated or a condensed version of spiritual warfare.
[00:53:43] Speaker B: That's why Luther says the moment you're baptized, the devil's closer to you than the shirt on your back.
Right. Like he's ready to attack because you've been taken out of his kingdom, put into God's kingdom, and now you're his enemy.
So one moment you were in his camp, the next moment you removed from it and put into the Lord's camp. And now that means you've got a target on your back. And Luther goes into great detail describing how that, you know, it's like he has a. Basically like a gun pointed at you at all times. Like he's ready to just pounce on you. Because now you're.
You're in the enemy territory as like, Lewis would use to talk about.
Right. Talk about God from Satan's perspective.
[00:54:22] Speaker A: Yep. This is. So the question is, I don't think. I mean, I see the desire for the question to be like, well, which is it? Do we baptize the babies because they're believers or because baptism creates faith? Do we baptize babies because the devil's been exercised? Or is baptism and exorcism, like, we want it to be clean, but even. But it's not.
Each thing kind of is on its own. So, like, say someone comes to you and they're like, they hear the preaching and they hear the absolution and their sins are forgiven. And then they say, well, I want to be baptized. You would never say, well, you don't need to be baptized because you're already born again.
No, baptism is that being born again. It's not a second being born again, but it's the gift of being born again that the Lord is accomplishing. And then you say, well, if my sins were forgiven already in baptism or in the preaching, why do I have to be baptized? And the answer is, well, this is just what Jesus does. And he wants to give us this added assurance that I belong to him, I am part of his family. And I can point to it. I can say, I'm baptized. And my confidence rests on this.
I mean, it's just.
It's the way the Lord has set it up. And so it's not some sort of mechanical, reductionistic thing. It's this overabundance that the Lord gives in.
I don't know, in life and in death. It's. I suppose it's like, you know, when you have a baby, you name the baby like Isaac was named. I don't know. He was a day and a half old. And we said, you are Isaac Wolfmuller. Well, was he Isaac Wolfmuller before we, like, signed the birth certificate? Well, yeah, he was, but there's a. There's a real thing that's happened there.
But it doesn't mean that before that he didn't have a name or he didn't exist or something like that.
The Lord puts his name on us in Baptism is a real thing. But it doesn't mean that there was no working of the Lord to save and to create faith before that.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: I think it's a great word to end on. We're done.
[00:56:31] Speaker A: We're done. Thanks, everyone, for your questions.
We're a little behind on these questions. So someone sent a note. They said, hey, you should remind people that instead of waiting for 17 years for us to answer, you can ask your pastor, too. That's good.
Everyone should have a list of theological questions just in a notebook. And then once it fills a page, take your pastor out for a cup of coffee and be like, hey, I got a few questions for you. And that's great. So he's your greatest theological resource. Make sure you go to his Bible class and take advantage of that. Thank you for sending the questions this way as well. It's a lot of fun. Wolfmuller Co Contact when you're there, you can sign up for the Wednesday whatnot. You can also find information to go to Israel with Pastor Packer that's on his website, his substack. You could sign up for his substack to where he tells you about all the books that he's reading. Makes you feel bad that you don't read as much. But nevermind. That might be a personal problem. So thanks for being involved, all you YouTube theologians out there. Thanks Pastor Packer. God's peace be with.
