Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians, it's Pastor Brian Wolf Muller, St. Paul and Jesus deaf Lutheran churches in Austin, Texas, and Pastor Andy Packer here to do some q and a podcast. Pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, I heard a rumor about you that you are jealous because I'm taking a trip to Greece next September.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: That's true. That was true.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: If you're listening and you want to come, Wolfmail co Greece 2005 for all the info, I think it's filling up very quick, actually. So let us know if you want to come with us. Flammy, do you know that flam is doing a trip, too? So we're going to be in parallel. He's going to have a bus and I'm going to have a bus racing down the street and we'll be together.
What's that?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: I thought that's where you heard the rumor because I was lamenting to him that you and him get to go do all these fancy trips and I'm just sitting here.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: You know, it was his idea, I think. So, uh, if you, you want to come to, we could have three buses racing down the road. We're going to be together for a theological conference in Thessalonica. I'm, I'm hoping David Preuss and our missionaries are going to join us from all over Europe, and then we'll be on the cruise together to pat most in Ephesus. And it should be a pretty cool trip. So that'll be good. Next year, you and flammy take over. That'll be good. Uh, again. Oh, so if you're in or if you're watching this, you're like, oh, yeah, this sounds like fun. I put, try to put the link in the description. Greece 2005. All right, what do you got for us, Pastor Packer? Do you like how I did the rumor as a advertisement?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: That was great. Also, now I'm just sad as I read these questions.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: I heard a rumor back when you're jealous of my ability to turn rumors into advertisements into Segway.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: That's, that's why you're going to grease and I'm not. Because I'm not. I'm not good at doing that. All right, first question, temptation and concupiscence.
So could you do a video, explain temptation versus the sin of concupiscence? After listening to your podcast with the girls of let's talk about it on the sacraments, this question came up when discussing justification and original sin cleansed by baptism. Would love your thoughts.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: Hmm. Hmm. So I would say this so that because this question comes up, especially when discussing Jesus temptation. Right, because Jesus was able to be tempted, and yet he was without concupiscence. He had no fallen nature, no original sin. Therefore, he had no desire for sin. And the question is, how can Jesus truly be tempted if he has no desire for sin? And yet we know that he was. I mean, we just, we read about it, the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness immediately after his baptism, driven by the spirit to be tempted. Now, maybe the first thing to say is that in the theological language, temptation has a broader meaning than what we normally mean by it. So what we normally mean when we say temptation is that wanting to do the wrong thing.
And if you just read that narrow definition, then the biblical use of the word, and especially the lutheran use of the word, is not. It doesn't make sense. So we need a broader definition, which means all of the troubles of this world with the consequent result of our reacting wrongly to them. So we want the wrong thing, we desire the wrong thing, we act the wrong way, we respond the wrong way, et cetera, et cetera.
So all of that is included in temptation. Now, I think when it comes to the temptation of Jesus, what we recognize is that we have, we, you and I, and all the children of Adam and eve, from the beginning, except for Jesus, have three sources of sin, the world and the devil and our own sinful flesh. So there are three anti God wills, three anti God wants, three anti God forces the world, the devil, and our own sinful flesh. And temptation for us comes from all three, from the world that is drawing us to itself. And the world tempts us, either by giving or taking away. It's either the. It's either the rocks or the, or the thorns, right? It's. It's the temptation of pleasures and the good things or the temptation of affliction and the bad things.
Either way, it's temptation. Also the devil who's there trying to make the theological applications of what the world does. So the devil comes along and, and amplifies the pleasures that the world offers us, or the devil comes along and tries to preach about the suffering that we have in the world. Oh, it's because God hates you or whatever I. And so the devil is there also bringing temptation. And then there's the third source, which is our own sinful flesh. So when the world says, hey, you want this sinful thing? I say, oh, yeah, that is what I want. Or when the devil comes preaching on my suffering, God must hate you, my flesh. It must be that God hates me so that there's an ally, an alien will, an anti God desire that is alive and well in my own sinful flesh, and that wanting the wrong thing and that tendency of the flesh to sin is what we call concupiscence. And it's normally what we recognize as temptation, that internal desire for the wrong thing. But I want to say that what happens is that the world and the devil find an ally in my own sinful flesh for sin and wrong things.
And so the difference between concupiscence and temptation is that temptation is broader, and concupiscence is probably my own individual susceptibility to temptation because of my fallen nature.
So that Jesus would have experienced temptation, but that temptation for him was just from the outside. It was just from the world and just from the devil, and not from his own sinful flesh. So he was afflicted from the outside, but not from his. His own fallen nature.
The result is that Jesus could not have sinned. But people say that. People say it sounded like President Trump.
People are always telling me that it wasn't a real temptation if Jesus could not have sinned.
But I think if we were to understand it rightly, the fact that Jesus could not sin, but could experience the affliction of sin makes it even worse.
In other words, just like, at some point, you just think for you, like, eating, right? Like, if I'm starving to death and there's, like, a bowl of M and Ms, like, I might be able to endure that temptation to not eat the m and M's and for, I don't know, 1020 minutes.
But at some point, I give in. It's like the stories of the people who die, you know, on the raft at sea, because they know that they can't drink the salt water, but their thirst just overwhelms them. So they finally either give in to this temptation or they die.
And Jesus could neither give into the temptation nor die, which meant that he experienced hunger and thirst just to take two temptations in a deeper and more profound and more painful way than any human being could endure, so that his sinfulness, in fact, amplifies his temptation rather than diminishes it, I think now, all that is to say that this difference between temptation and concupiscence is that concupiscence is our own individual temptedness, I'd say, and our willingness and our desire to go along with those temptations.
And that is, in fact, truly sin on our behalf. I don't know what you think about that.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: I think that's a, it's a great summary. I don't really think I have anything to add to that. It made me think of your article that's, that's up on your website about, uh, feeding the, the two fires. Isn't that like the two campfires.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Analogy that you use. Um, I mean, we think about that. Just that because of that, like, we have to be careful about not, not feeding the sinful flesh, the things that then make it easier and easier for us to give into temptation. Uh, so that was a, that's part of what jumped in my head as you were going through. That was because I've always found the article very helpful in explaining those things. And I think that aspect of it, for us, is so important because we can actually, uh, feed the sinful flesh as we keep giving into temptation and keep, and we've talked about elsewhere, too, the danger then, of searing your conscience and, you know, hardening your conscience to the sin. Like, there's so many dangers wrapped up with that, because our sinful flesh desires those things and wants those things. And if we keep giving it what it wants, it's going to end up destroying us in the end.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: So Paul says, make no provision for the flesh and the desires thereof, which is a, that's a really important piece of instruction and wisdom from Paul, because it is like, so. Because so the danger is. So we think of our desire for the wrong thing, like hunger, in the sense that if I'm hungry right now, if I eat something, then I cease to be hungry. And if I drink something, I cease to be thirsty. So we say, ah, that must be the way my, my sinful desires work. If I satisfy those desires, they go away. But it, in fact, is not the case. It's more like a fire that if you think, oh, look, the fire wants wood. So if I give it wood, it'll put the fire down. But the opposite happens, right? I put fire on the wood and it burns hotter. And so when we feed our desires, they grow stronger. Not, they don't diminish, they strengthen. And this is not only true of our sinful desires, it's also true of the, of the new man, which is interesting that I do not think that the word passion or desire is ever used in connection with the new man, with the spirit, which is curious to me, because it would be helpful to have that parallel. But just if you let me to kind of stretch to that parallel, the spiritual desires are also increased by being fed. So it's not like if I skip church, it makes me want to go to church more. The opposite. It makes me want to go to church less. If I go to the Lord's supper, it actually makes me want to go to the Lord's supper more.
So that there's a difference as a mystery for spiritual satisfaction is that satisfaction and desire go together.
But both with that. That's true spiritually in the sanctified sense. It's also true in the immorality senses that the more I feed my flesh, the more it wants. So we have to stack the wood on the spiritual fire and not on the fire of the flesh.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's extremely helpful.
I think that answers their question. So let's go on to the next one, which is kind of a. It's an interesting question. I thought, um, that came into us. It's actually. This one is actually from Australia. Uh, so good.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: I. Could you please read it with an australian accent, Pastor Packer?
[00:11:49] Speaker B: No, I can translate then. I don't. Yeah, you'll have to translate because I don't want to offend a whole continent and country at the same time.
[00:11:57] Speaker A: I'm not afraid of that.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: All right. Uh, clearly, they used to be tough.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: These Australians, but now they're getting kind of. They're like, ah, fine. Women's ordination for. Right, whatever. Sounds great, mate. Go ahead.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: All right, let's see if we get through this. Okay. It's commonly said, although maybe not by Lutherans, that eternal life begins at the moment of trust in the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
What does his sacrifice save people from in this earthly life? And what does it save it from after this present life?
[00:12:28] Speaker A: So it's just right that when the Bible speaks of the Christian's eternal life, it doesn't talk about it in just simply in the future. Like, you will have eternal life, but you have eternal life. This is the most famously in John 316, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall have, not will have, but has now has eternal life. In fact, Ephesians two talks about how we're seated in the heavenly places with Christ.
So the gifts of salvation are multitude, that we have so that when we are born again, when we are regenerated, when we are given the new life, when we are spiritually raised from the dead, we began a life that will never end.
We have what revelation 20 calls the first death, well, really the first resurrection, which means that we wont participate in the second death. So we already have been. We already died with Christ in our baptism, and we've raised to live a newness of life. Romans, chapter six. So that, so that we have, I mean, what are the gifts of salvation that the Lord gives? Number one, he gives us the forgiveness of sins that he does not hold our sins against us. All that we've done wrong and deserved because of all that we've done wrong, he takes away. He's endured it already. And not only has he taken away all that we've done wrong, he has applied to us the righteous perfection of Christ, so that now we are clothed in Christ righteousness and ready to stand before the judgment seat of God. And on that judgment seat, not only will we not receive the condemnation that we've deserved because of our life and our works, but rather we will receive a commendation and gifts from God. Treasures, rewards.
Because we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, which has served to purify all that we've done wrong and cast into the sea. All that, all that we have, all the sins that we've committed, so our impure good works are made pure and worthy of reward, and our sinful works are forgotten. This is amazing. We're adopted into God's family so that we are no longer children of the devil, children of wrath. Like Hebrews two says, we're born children. No, now we are the children of mercy, the children of light. We belong to God, who is now our father, our adopted father. Christ is our brother, so we are co heirs with him of all the that the Father has given to him, which includes everything. We are co heirs with Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit as a down payment and pledge for the resurrection, so that now the Holy Spirit lives in us, making our spirit alive to love and long for the gifts of God, to treasure the wisdom that he gives to us in the scriptures. And he's also in that adoption and bringing us into his family, giving us brothers and sisters throughout the world, so that every Christian now is your brother and sister. You're part of this family of God.
Death now for us, which is the final enemy that the world has to face now, is transformed for the Christian into sleep and into the way that the Lord brings us into life eternal, so that now there's no more fear of death, because of what Christ has given to us in the resurrection, so that we can live our lives free from the enslaving fear of death, which was a slavery to anyone who would use that to manipulate us, so that we are finally free to truly love and to serve one another without being afraid of death, without even worrying about suffering. Not because we know that suffering is a way that leads us to that, like strengthens our moral fiber, but because the Lord himself also suffered, so that we know that he's with us in suffering and he doesn't forget us in suffering. So that the Christian now, because of the death and resurrection of Jesus, can live and suffer and die with joy. That is completely unassailable and completely independent of all the ups and downs of this life. In fact, it's almost the opposite. The more that we suffer, the more we rejoice. And the more we rejoice, the more we rejoice, so that it's grace upon grace upon grace. And the Lord has given us the scriptures. He's, he gives us his body and blood with the promise of the forgiveness of sins so that the Christian by faith believes that this is true. The Lord stays with us from, from beginning to end. I mean, this is just like, so, so that we say it like this. Where the forgiveness of sins is, there also is life and salvation. So that the Christian now in this life is saved. I mean, that we're rescued from sin, from death, from the devil, from hell itself, from the condemnation, from the troubles of a bad conscience, from worrying about the afflictions of this life, from even worrying about the normal things of this life, which the pagans worry about, what to eat, what to drink. You know, our heavenly Father takes care of us. All these things we have in this life. This is, I mean, the benefits of being a Christian.
Are you could I could, I could empty out the shelves here and start making a list and fill them up. I mean, this, these gifts and then these gifts continue for us through death into eternal life, so that our bodies are raised incorruptible, that we're beyond the reach of sin, death and the devil, that we have a perfect longing for the Lord. And it's perfectly fulfilled. In the glory of heavenly life, we have the new heaven and the new earth where the righteous dwell, to serve the Lord forever in the holiness that he's given to us. I mean, so the question was, what are the gifts in this life and the life to come like we have? We, we need eternal life just to even realize all the gifts that the Lord gives to us.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: Do you think it's helpful the distinctions often made that the already not yet distinction, like we already have all of these things, but we don't yet have them. Or maybe not don't yet have them, but don't yet experience them in the fullness that we get to experience them for all eternity like we have them all, but we just don't get to quite, because of sin, we live in the sinful flesh because we live in a fallen sinful world. We have all of these gifts, but we haven't yet experienced even the fullness of joy of them because of sin. But on, when we're with an eternity, we'll get to spend eternity delighting in these gifts and rejoicing in these gifts and understanding the fullness of these gifts that we're just barely scratching the surface of now. I mean, you listed, I don't know, I lost count of how many things you listed, but you listed all those things and we experience them now. And yet eventually we're going to get to experience them in a way that we right now can't even comprehend.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Right. We're just, we're scratching the surface of the joy and the life and all these, the forgiveness, all of these wonderful things. We're scratching the surface and on the last day we'll have the fullness of joy in ways that we can't even comprehend now. Like those gifts will be fully ours and fully experienced by us in a way that we just, I mean, how do you, how do you begin to process that in this life? How do you begin to think that's going to be an eternity of delighting and figuring it out that our finite minds just can't wrap our heads around?
[00:19:29] Speaker A: I don't think that's a hundred. That's exactly right. I like that. Now. Not yet. I think I prefer the, so Paul says it like this. We walk by faith and not by sight. So it's, it's faith then sight. So, so now we have all these gifts by faith, by promise, by pledge.
But we don't see them yet. I mean, it's hard to see them. Every now and again we get a tiny little glimpse, right. It's hard to see them until the, until. Well, how do we sing it? We sinned, sinned hope before to grasp it, till hope be lost in sight. So we have these, we have this hope and longing for all these great gifts and we send hope before to grab ahold of those promises until hope is lost in sight. So faith, hope and love. These three, the greatest is love because fate on the last day, faith and hope have brought us to the door and now they drop us off and it's just love from then on. So, so this is, this is the, the way we live, trusting the promises, waiting for them to. To be fulfilled. So the Lord's on the way back someday, hopefully very, very soon. And then. And then faith is lost in sight.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: All right, you want the last question?
[00:20:38] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: That's really short.
Is marijuana.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: I was supposed to answer the last one with an australian accent. Ah, let me go back and redo it.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: I was gonna say, you have to redo the whole thing.
Marijuana is not something I'm interested in, but it's very popular with college students and young adults. I'm not sure how to talk to them about the subject and looking for any advice. So is marijuana sinful? We could probably limit it for our discussion to recreational use, not discussing medical use, which would be kind of a different conversation. So maybe. Maybe just focus on. Do you think the recreational use of marijuana is sinful? Would be the question.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Yes. And I think I had to write when in. When I was serving in Colorado, this is like when they first legalized pot. And I'll put a link to the article that I wrote when that happened.
Marijuana is legal as a good. Is the. Is the answer. And here's the.
Here's the basic. Where we start from thinking about this as christians. Number one, the Christian is called to sobriety, which does not just mean that we're not drunk, but because it has to do with sobriety of mind and thought, et cetera. But it's impossible to be sober and to be drunk. So it's like, not being drunk is where we start with sobriety. So you could find someone who's stone cold sober and also mentally not sober, but you can't be drunk and sober at the same time. So, okay, so we have to have a sobriety, and this has to do with really chemical use. Right. Alcohol, normally we think of it, but all sorts of drugs will affect our sobriety, including marijuana, which has that purpose. So the difference, because people often say, hey, you know, more people drunk driving than. Than driving high, and it's a different. The drunkenness that comes from alcohol is different kind of drunkenness that comes from marijuana, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What I want to say is that the purpose of using marijuana is to lose your sobriety. That is the reason for it. You can have wine and beer and remain sober, and I do not know how that is possible with marijuana. Um, and it seems like that's getting. That is getting even less possible because of the straight changing nature of marijuana. So, again, you know, these reports are always coming out about the. The strength of the. And the potency of the drug that is there now that it's just nothing like it was even in the sixties and seventies, which, okay, I mean, that's, it wasn't even good back then. So that the Christian is to pursue sobriety and that marijuana stands against that. Now, why are we to be sober? This is where we really need to lean in, is that the Bible will give us reasons that we should be sober.
Chiefly, it's for the sake of the conscience. Sobriety, insobriety, drunkenness in any form does damage in the conscience, mostly by unregulating the conscience. So if we think of the conscience almost like the bars of a cage in a zoo, and all the wild animals are behind the bars, okay, and the conscience is what's keeping me safe.
But when we're drunk, it's like all the doors of all the cages are flung open. And if your sinful flesh is violent, out comes the brawler. If your sinful flesh is lusty, out comes the adulterer. If your sinful flesh is whatever, bitter, out comes all the 8th commandment stuff, or whatever your particular temptation of the, of your flesh is, drunkenness, just loosens it up. And that's what we, what's what we see with the drug use. And I think there's even, this is something that's probably needs a little more thinking, but that even the different kinds of drugs that affect the conscience, will affect the conscience in a, in a different way. So there's a hint of this in proverbs that says wine's a mocker, beer's a brawler. You remember that verse? So it's almost like beer will let out the violent sinful flesh and wine will let out like the skeptical sinful flesh, the mockery kind of thing. So even different forms of drugs will open up different ways for the flesh. This is particularly true just by the way of any sort of psychedelic drug.
That is a second commandment business right there. I mean, it opens up these kind of spiritual avenues of attack.
Oh, absolutely. Really, really dangerous. I mean, really demonic stuff.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Have you read, there's a new book on that, the return of the dragon. People should check that out. It's really interesting. It's on the uh, the role psychedelics delics have played in pagan worship throughout history, and uh, the role they're playing right now in our society. And it's a really fascinating look at this stuff. Um, I was gonna add one, one thing to all of that, because I did a lot of research into this, because also being a pastor in Colorado when all this was going on, uh, the one part that they know a lot about this, but you don't hear it. I'm hearing it talked about more now in the last couple of years is, uh, the psychosis that can come from smoking marijuana. They have, I mean, this goes back a really long time. Like, we're talking over 100 years of evidence on this stuff that it literally has been known to drive people mad after extended use of this stuff. So it's not only in the short term stealing your sobriety, in the long term, it's for many people, it is stealing their minds, uh, where they're having mental breakdowns from. From long term use of this stuff. So these are things people need to be aware of and, and look into. I'd encourage people to actually look into these things. We have lots of evidence on this stuff and what it's doing to people. Um, you hear these, I know they sell all the arguments in favor because, you know, they're making lots of money off this stuff, but, um, there's a lot of good, hard evidence to look at the dangers of it on all fronts, spiritually, physically, everything. And people need to be aware of this stuff.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. I'm just thinking about what these reasons for sobriety. So conscience and then for the sake of our prayers, for the sake of love for the neighbor, all that, we are sober for all of these particular reasons, spiritual warfare. So we want to pursue sobriety and all these sorts of things, and we just want to say, hey, does marijuana help me pursue sobriety or nothing?
And I think that makes it an easy question. We could ask the same questions, I suppose, about, like, alcohol use, but they have to be kind of informed then by a lot of scriptures that actually talk about it. But the scriptures that probably talk about marijuana are going to be the pharmakia kind of witchcraft stuff.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: So, yeah.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: All right, well, I think that's it for today.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Thanks for watching YouTube, theologians, this is so great. You can send questions to. I don't know, you should probably just send them straight to Pastor Packer or you can put them on the, on the video comments. So that'll be kind of cool. And we could do it. It's because my, I think my website still not forwarding all the.
I don't know what's in. Anyway, keep sending your questions. This is a lot of fun. Thanks, Pastor packet for being here. Gods, peace be with.
