Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, YouTube theologians. Welcome to the Theology Q and A podcast. I'm pastor Brian Wolfmother, St. Paul Lutheran Church and Jesus Deaf Lutheran Church in Austin, Texas, joined by Pastor Andrew Packer, who's curating your questions and making sure I'm no heretic pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Collinsville, Illinois. Pastor Packer, is it true that you have totally given up on coffee and now you only drink green tea?
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Oh, no, that is not true.
Not at all.
I drink a lot of coffee.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Rumor denied. Squash, what do you got?
[00:00:38] Speaker B: First question. What about the graven image commandments?
Thank you for your Q A sessions.
They're a Lutheran from Norway, but they have a question.
Because the Reformed combine the ninth and tenth commandment into one, and we have the first and second combined into one. And so the question is, are we kind of hiding this away with the way we have the Commandments numbered? And they mentioned they did listen to the one on the incarnation of Jesus and how we can picture Jesus, but they would like more thoughts on images and icons because of this commandment issue.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Yep. The first important I and I appreciate this about the question is that a lot of times the Reformed accused the Lutherans of taking the commandment out.
That's just not the case.
We believe that you should not make any graven images or fall down before them. In other words, we understand that the Lord forbids the worship of any representation of himself.
So we understand that that's part of the first commandment.
It's an amplification of the first commandment. So either way, either way, we have the words that are there. So the question is, what do you do with the words? And that's really the theological question that we have to ask. So it's not really a question of the numbering of the commandments. I think this is a kind of a cheap shot to where.
Because again, we have it. It's in the Bible, you know, it's in numbers.
Sorry. It's in Exodus, chapter 20, in Deuteronomy, chapter 6. It's there. It says, you shall not make any graven images or fall down before them. So even if it's not in the kind of summary list of the ten Commandments, we have it. The number of the commandments is an interesting question. There's basically four different ways of numbering it. What's interesting is that the Reformed have the same numbering system as the Orthodox. And that hasn't stopped them from having pictures. They're crazy about the pictures, but the difference, it's interesting is like, if you go to Greece versus if you go to Rome, everything in Greece is flat.
Everything in Rome is three dimensional. You got the Eastern tradition is the icon tradition and the Western tradition is the statuary and paintings and everything else.
So here's the main thing.
We should not worship an image. We should understand that God is spirit.
When we worship, we're worshiping, as Jesus says, in spirit and in truth.
So that we set apart God in our hearts as that to which we look for all good, to him whom we cry out to in every time of trouble, that we fear and love and trust in God above all things. That's what's being demanded of us.
If there was people, if there was Lutherans who were worshiping statues of God or even Jesus or of the saints or whatever, then we'd say, hey, this is forbidden by the Scriptures.
There is a right use of images that is taught to us in the Scriptures and that is to teach and to adorn so that we see. The Lord even gives specific instructions in the Old Testament on how to adorn the temple and the tabernacle with various images.
And that has been handed down to us wonderfully in the history of the church too. The use of statuary and the use of images to adorn and to instruct.
But this has to be separated, not just distinguished, but separated from any act of worship.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: There's a. I think it's logos.com that had a. Their blog had a wonderful article on showing that basically the Lutheran breakdown of the Ten Commandments is like. Makes the most sense textually. Like, makes the most sense of. Which is one of the best things I've seen on that topic because it comes up a lot.
On the other hand, I've seen a different argument that that works well in Exodus, but in Deuteronomy the Reform numbering works better. But which makes your point that the numbering doesn't really matter a whole lot. It's like the meaning of the commandments and what we're to get out of them, not how you end up numbering them, since it doesn't. There's not a list in the Bible that says first, second, third, whatever. Like, it's not. Not broken down that way, so we don't have to stress about that.
And Luther says repeatedly, right, this is primarily an issue of the heart. And you could have no images in your church and have all kinds of idolatry in the heart about all kinds of things.
So just because you don't have the outward statue or the outward picture doesn't mean you're free from idolatry. Which seems to be a legalism that creeps in here, the way it's often expressed even. I think we talked about this before. The idea that you can't even have an image of Jesus in your mind when you're reading the New Testament or something like that, that seems to just get odd really fast. Like, here Jesus is in the flesh, and you're like, nope. Can't you almost have a picture like a ghost walking around or just have your mind blank about someone doing all these things?
It doesn't. It doesn't work.
But. So we're not hiding it away and we're not trying to make excuses.
I love the fact that the Eastern Orthodox and the Reformed have the same numbering because it just. I think that alone, that argument alone obliterates the entire discussion because it's often I hear it. Well, the Roman Catholics did that so they could worship images. And it's like, okay, well then why didn't the Eastern Orthodox, like, if that's your whole argument, why didn't they do that too? And so they cannot be the argument.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: The Jewish tradition also puts those two together as well. So in the synagogue, you shall not have any other gods and you shall not make any graven images. Is the second commandment. So. Or the second word that's there. We have the. There's two places that it, like I think in numbers in Deuteronomy, where it talks about the 10 words. And that's why you have to go back and number the commandments 10. Because naturally, looking at it, it would be probably 12, the commandments, or maybe nine, just depending. But. But the Lord calls them the 10 words. So we've got to come up with the list of 10, but he doesn't tell you how to do it. And the fact that the Lord switches around. You shall not covet your neighbor's house with. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. In the Deuteronomy passage versus the Exodus passage that Luther says that shows that this is not important. And so we would never.
Like. It's interesting. And we want to. You have to number them to be able to teach them. But we would never say that someone is a false teacher because they use a different numbering of the commandments.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: All right, next.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: So we. Oh, we. And this is something that. So we. People normally say that the Lutherans have the same numbering as the Catholics, but we don't.
So we. So we have number nine. You shall not covet your neighbor's house.
And that explicitly has to do with doing the wrong thing legally, it has to do with manipulating the law so that you get something without breaking the law. And then the tenth command, the tenth commandment for us is, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or your neighbor's workers, manservant or maidservant, or your neighbor's ox or donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor that has to do with all the things that your neighbor has who have legs.
So it has to do with enticement. So I can entice my neighbor's wife, or I can entice my neighbor's workers, or I can entice my neighbor's cows, his livestock. I'm not doing anything. They came to me. I'm just sitting here, you know, flexing in the window or whatever.
I'm sure that's how it works.
That's what. What's the opposite of enticement? So.
So that's the 10th. Now, the Catholic numbering followed. That's the Exodus numbering. In Deuteronomy, it's reversed. So first the Lord says, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
And so that's the ninth commandment with Rome. And they understand that to be an intensification of the sixth commandment. So you shall not commit adultery. Then you shall not even covet. You shouldn't lust. And then the tenth commandment is your neighbor's house, wife, workers, no, sorry, house manservant, maid servant, ox, donkey, etc. That has to do with your neighbor's livelihood and possessions. And so they understand that as an intensification of the seventh commandment.
So I think it's great, actually, to look at it both ways. I think that when we look at the nuance of the last commandments in the. In Exodus versus the nuance of the last commandments in Deuteronomy, it gives us a little different nuance. And I think they're both helpful. So. But I don't know. Most people just lump the. The Lutherans and the. And the Catholics in together. But we actually have a different. A different number.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Our next one's.
What about infertility?
So for those struggling with infertility, when are we to seek medical testing or treatment?
Or are we to trust the Lord provides children in his way and timing alone?
Are we in charge of how many? And when we have kids, does God choose? Why does God bless some women with many children and others with few or none, even when they long for these blessings from the Lord?
So how do we deal with infertility?
[00:09:46] Speaker A: The. This is very, very difficult. The.
There's a handful of attacks that come to couples that are.
That are longing for children and don't have it.
And their spiritual afflictions, their afflictions of the heart as well as afflictions of the body.
They are. And they are profound.
One of the most.
The sharpest temptations is to despise the gift of children that God gives to other people.
And especially.
Especially when. So, you know, there's a handful. We got all these babies at St. Paul.
It's crazy, but there's a. You know, there's couples that are. Are praying and longing for this gift of children, and the gift isn't coming.
And. And every time there's an announcement of another baby on the way, it just.
It hurts.
You know, it hurts. And it's. And it's conf. It's.
It's made even more profound by the whole, like, looking around our culture and. And with the whole question of abortion and how the Lord seemingly will give children to people who don't want them. Who don't want them so much that they'll murder them.
Why.
And this. Why would the Lord do that?
Put a baby in that inhospitable womb, but not in this womb that's longing for a child?
Oy, oy, oy. Is that a hard temptation?
I mean, it just. That is a really deep affliction.
And when those temptations come along and this is.
There's a.
There's always a danger to.
Then.
I don't know, To. To seek remedy in things that are on the edge. So there's. There's a temptation towards magic. There's a temptation towards kind of medical.
Extreme medical intervention.
There's a temptation towards.
I mean, you start thinking about all sorts of crazy things like what do we got to do to. To do this?
It's. And I suppose it's the same thing that happens with us, with all of us. You know, the more desperate our situation is, then the. Then the more. The less constrained our imagination becomes.
And so it's a. It's a. I. I'm. I haven't answered the question. I'm. I'm just trying to sympathize with the fantastic difficulties of couples who are in the. In the situation. So that's maybe the. To set the playing field. So. Thoughts on that, Pastor Packer?
[00:12:38] Speaker B: I was just going to recommend. If the person who sent this doesn't have it, you should go on Amazon and buy Katie Shoreman's book, He Remembers the Baron.
It's a fantastic resource for couples who are Struggling with this, like, is just wonderful. I try to buy copies for people when they come to me and talk about that, have the church get it for them so that they can have that as a resource.
So get that and read that and meditate upon that. She's got a lot of great wisdom and advice for those of you who are suffering through that.
It's just fantastic. So he remembers the Baron. You can get it from Amazon. That's Katie Schuerman. She's got a lot of other books on Amazon, but look for that one.
That would be my number one recommendation.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: We have to recognize the moral risks that start to come in. And this would go under the rubric of the separation of goods. That's how the kind of classic Christian thought has given us to think about it. So the further we separate the goods, in other words, the further you separate the act of marriage and intimacy between husband and wife from conception and having a child, the more opportunity there is for. For evil to enter in.
So that. So we want to have a number of constraints that are there first.
We. And. And I think this is going to be. As we think about what's the right thing to do, we have to be willing to suffer.
This is not with. Just with infertility, but it's with everything in life.
If we cannot start our Christian life refusing to be willing to suffer.
That's what epicureanism is. It's a refusal to suffer.
So that even if there is suffering, you have to address it in every sort of way, including then.
I mean, this is where euthanasia comes in and all this sort of stuff. You have to end life so that you can end suffering, so that the Christian has to start with a willingness to suffer. And. And if the Lord is going to hand over the suffering, the cross of infertility to a couple, you have to be willing to receive it. You can't refuse the Lord's crosses. This is the case again, not just with this situation, but for every situation.
So here we say, am I willing to suffer this?
Because if I'm not, I am going to sin.
Even my unwillingness to suffer itself is going to be a sin.
Okay, we have to think about that, though, Pastor Packer. Like, I mean, when a guy's going to become a pastor or when a couple's going to get married, or whenever you're going to venture onto anything, you have to. You have to say, am I willing to suffer here?
And if we're. And there's a great danger if we say we're not we're not willing to suffer this cross. We're not willing to remain infertile. We're not willing to not have children. We're going to do whatever it takes.
That's going to be dangerous. No, I'm willing to suffer. And then to say what are the interventions that we can pursue that keep the goods together? In other words, no other person is going to enter into the circumstance here. We're not going to get donors for sperm and egg. That's not what the Lord has called us to. He wants us to two, to become one flesh. We're not going to do anything that would result in, in death or in, in life that is not brought cared to for fruition. So this would be like major IVF treatment where you have multiple eggs that are fertilized and then mostly frozen and a lot of those remain. This, this can't be an option for the Christian couple where kind of mathematics enters in and so you start doing this calculus of how many eggs do you have to have fertilized to reach viability? And all this sort of stuff that once you start entering into that place, it's very, very dangerous spiritually.
Luckily, the constraint that Christians have for conception has led to a lot of other sort of medical options that are not dangerous. In other words, there's health treatments for just depending on where the difficulties are.
If it's on the husband's side or on the wife's side or in, you know, kind of in between. There's, there's a lot of different options and it seems like there's some, some fertility, some non, non mechanical, even just like slightly medical interventions that are available now that, that the reproductive like big reproduction complex don't want to mention because there's big money in all these things, big money in IVF and big money in all this. So to look into those other options.
I'm not of course not an expert on this. Well, I don't know if, of course, I hope that all you who are watching assume that I'm not an expert on anything actually. But so of course I'm not an expert on any of it. But to look into these other, other options. There's a lot of good stuff that's available that's kind of shown amazing results.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: I think that's a, that's a great answer. I don't need to add the other.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: Maybe just the story that I've heard is as soon as there's couples who can't have children, as soon as they adopt a baby, then they have, they get pregnant. So that, that's a.
Have you heard those stories? It's an amazing thing.
So you.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: I, I know, I know some examples of, I mean, that's, I mean, that's another. Since you brought it up, like, there's another great option for those who cannot have their own children is adoption or foster care.
Not that you must do those things, but it's at least worth looking into and seriously considering that perhaps that's, that's a way God would provide you children to love and care for. So those are, those are things we don't want to overlook or just think, well, those aren't my own children. So I don't really want to consider that as an option.
So I think that's something to pray about at least and consider.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Yep. And talk to your pastor. And, and here's the, here's the way to check, to check your heart. Is that are you happy or are you angry when you hear about your friends having children?
That's a good place. Just like you want, you want to rejoice in the gift of children across the board. That's the same sort of test, by the way, that if you're, if you're single and you're longing for marriage and then you hear about your friends getting engaged, are you angry about that or are you happy about that? And it's natural to be upset about it. It's natural that the first thing is this.
But to know that that's from your sinful flesh and that the Lord has called us to be rejoicing in the gift of marriage and family, even if we don't have it. So even if I'm single, I'm still rejoicing in the gift of marriage. Even if I don't have children, I'm rejoicing in the gift of children. Even if I don't have grandchildren, I'm rejoicing in the gift of my friends who have grandchildren and so forth, so that we have this shared joy in the institutions, even if we are not experiencing them ourselves. And that's, that's part of the angelic joy to which the Christian is called.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: All right, next question.
How do Lutherans handle charismatic testimonies?
So here's the situation.
I understand charismatic theology can be rather shallow, and the leaders tend to be very problematic. But many of the people themselves are normal, very genuine Christians with various testimonies that can't just be discounted as false, be they healings, personal experiences that guide them deeper into their love for Christ, or stories of people getting saved and Their lives changing.
I work a lot with charismatics, and sometimes it's hard for me as a Lutheran, to find the line between strictly holding to my beliefs while also affirming or at least not automatically discounting these genuine believers and their genuine testimonies and faith.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: Great.
Very practical question. I love the question.
So there's. There's kind of two Lutheran approaches to this.
The one Lutheran approach is to say, it's all hogwash.
Forget about it.
I do not like that approach.
I. I prefer this approach. And that is to say that private revelation is just exactly that private revelation.
And if so, if the Lord wants to reveal something to somebody, that's his business. He can give him a vision, he can give him a dream, he can give him a word. If he determines that that person needs that particular thing, he can do it. But here's what happens is that when someone.
And it's not by accident, that over and over in the. In the Bible, when the Lord would give a word to a prophet, it's called a burden because it's not obviously good. And it calls for a great deal of stewardship, a great deal of responsible management of that particular word. Number one.
The great danger if the Lord comes to me and gives me a word is that I think, wow.
I mean, this is what Paul says.
The Lord had to give me the thorn in the flesh from keeping me from being too elated at the visions, so that the visions tempt me to be elated, they tempt me to be proud, to think, wow, look at the Lord. I must be really special that the Lord came and gave me a particular vision.
And we see that in a lot of the charismatic teachers is that along with the vision comes pride.
So we got to be very, very careful. The second temptation is to think that if the Lord has given me a vision or a word, that he's given that to me so I can give it to you.
I have to say, at what part of the stewardship of the vision of the Word from the Lord is that if the Lord wanted to give it to you, he could have done it. So it's very dangerous, Pastor Packer, if I say, hey, the Lord gave me a word for you, because you could say, well, why don't you go back and tell him to give it to me? I remember talking to someone who said, hey, the Lord Jesus told me something about you. And I said, oh, yeah? What's that? He says, well, he's mad at you, of course. That's what.
So I said, okay, here's the Deal. I'm at a distinct disadvantage here because you get to trust Jesus, but I have to trust you, and I'd rather trust Jesus. So next time Jesus tells you how mad he is at me, could you ask him kindly to tell me directly? Because I'd rather trust him than trust you. But that's the problem, is that if I come with a word for you now, I put myself over you.
And this is the great danger of the whole charismatic thing, is that it closes all of the Scripture. In other words, the idea that it takes a special revelation directly from God to understand what's being said closes off. It steals the Scripture from every Christian so that I can't get to what God is saying unless I have a vision to get there or unless I have a visionary to get me there. It's the same problem with the Pope. I mean, this is why it's all enthusiasm.
So if I have a vision, it's just for me. It's not my job to make it public and to share it with everybody else.
The third comes with the way that the vision relates to the Scripture. Okay, so first, pride. Second, for the individual itself, the third thing is that how does this vision or revelation change the way that I see the Scriptures?
Because either it matches what the Scripture says and is therefore unnecessary, or it goes against what the Scripture says and therefore is wrong, or it adds to what the Scripture says and is therefore dangerous. It assaults the sufficiency of the Scripture, which is probably the main problem. When this kind of light charismatic stuff shows up in evangelicalism, it undermines the sufficiency of the Scripture. And I start to think that I don't have enough if I have the Lord's word, and that these kind of visions or words or whatever are necessary.
So the word that comes from the Lord is either wrong or unnecessary or dangerous.
So it could be that the Lord is specifically giving direction to what's going on.
And this is probably the most likely way that it is. But again, it's just very private. And it also. Here comes. The fourth danger is that if the Lord is giving direction on what I should do or not do, we have to receive it as a suggestion.
This is maybe the most controversial theological idea that I have.
So you, Pastor Packer, you can push back on this and all of our listeners, if you don't feel comfortable with this, you can throw it out.
But I think that if the Lord comes to us with specific instructions apart from the word of God, they come to us as suggestions, not as commands, and that sometimes obedience is not following the word.
Okay, so here's my two examples. You remember over and over in the Old Testament how the Lord delivered Saul into the hands of David and David did not kill him. I mean, David is hiding in the. In the cave, and Saul comes into the cave and takes off his armor and everything to go to the bathroom, right? So close that David cuts off the edge of his robe and David does not kill him. If David was a charismatic, he would have said, the Lord is giving Saul into my hands. He does it another time when the Lord makes all of the guys fall asleep so that David can go and take the spear from right next to Saul.
How much clearer could the Lord have indicated to David?
You're supposed to take Saul and he did not take the signs as indications that he should do that. My second example is Paul in the New Testament in the Book of Acts, who is over and over warned by the Holy Spirit not only that he was going to be arrested if he went to Jerusalem and beaten, but that explicitly the prophet. There's a prophet in. I think it's in Caesarea who tells Saul, Paul not to go to Jerusalem, in the Spirit says, don't go to Jerusalem. And he disobeys that prophetic command and goes to Jerusalem. And the Scriptures do not present his trip to Jerusalem as a sinful trip, but in fact, as an act of faith and obedience.
So that when the Lord says in the scripture, you have enough, he really means it.
So I think those are the ways. That's my kind of framework for dealing with this, with the responsibility of handling private revelation.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: I'm not sure about the last one. So here would be my pushback with the David and Saul thing.
David is not told to kill Saul. Right?
The opportunity, like he said, the opportunity was there, presented itself, but he's not told ever to do it. In fact, he says, I'm obeying the word of the Lord. Touch not the Lord's right. Anointed. Like, I'm not going to kill him because he's God's king, so he can't do it. So he's obeying the word of the Lord there.
I think your Paul example is a better one for this, and I'd have to look at it more carefully.
But I mean, what if the Lord spoke to someone and does give them a command, though?
So you're saying it's a suggestion, but what if it's, like, worded as a command?
This is where I think we get into it gets a lot trickier.
So if it's Worded as a command.
That's in line with Scripture, Right? So that's how you would test. Is it in line with Scripture? Is it not? But it's in line with Scripture.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Then.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Then what do you do?
[00:29:00] Speaker A: I think. I really do think it has to be received as a suggestion, and you should probably do it.
But if there's.
The Lord is not overriding our wisdom in these things. It's. He's said, you're. I, my.
My word is sufficient for you.
So, so that there's still. So that the Lord still honors our own wisdom and our own freedom in these things. If they're. If it not Scripture, that would be my take on this. If the Lord wants to reveal it to me, if he wants me to know it, he'll put it in the Scripture. That's where my confidence is. There's all this great stuff in Luther where he prays. In fact, one place he says, I made a vow with the Lord that he would never give me a dream and never give me a vision because he saw the dangers of.
All these reformers were having all these dreams and all these visions, and they're being swept away from the Lord's word. And. And Luther says, I want. I don't want a dream or. And I don't want a vision because I always want to be able to teach. And a dream and a vision constrains me.
But. But the Scriptures constrain all of Christendom anyway. It's. I think, so again, it's my most controversial theological position. But I. So just so far that we've found.
But so I think I would just suggest to consider it. I mean, look, if the Lord comes to you, this is part of the problem, right? If the Lord comes to you in a dream or a vision or whatever, it's very difficult to know that that's the Lord.
And again, if it confirms what's in the Scripture, then it's fine. I don't need the vision. I've got the Scripture. I think a lot of times that's how the Lord does it. He just points us back to the Scripture. He brings us back to the Word. He says, this is what applies to this particular thing.
But what if it's apart from that? Then I just have to be content with the Word. The Word, the Word, the Word. And I certainly don't look for or need anything apart from the Word. And if the Lord wants to give it, you know, again, that's his business. But he wrestles with us, you know, and so this is how he's gonna, you know, Jesus says to. To Jacob, let me go.
And he says, no.
And that was what he was supposed to say.
You know, that with the Syrophoenician woman.
Jesus says, I didn't come. I came only for Israel.
It's not. And she says, help. She doesn't let go.
You know, the. The guy is knocking on his neighbor's door and he. And he says, go away. We're all asleep. I'm in. I'm in bed, the kids are in bed. And he keeps knocking. And Jesus says, do that. In other words.
So if the Lord goes to wrestle with you, it's a real.
That's a different thing, you know, so we hold on to the word. We hold on to the word. And then if the Lord wants to come and wrestle, then he comes to wrestle.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Let's move on to something less controversial. Quarrelsome wives.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Oh, that's good.
That's nice.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: That's my segue.
So, the quarrelsome wife dilemma.
I've been reading the book of Proverbs, and today I thought I was having deja vu. As I was reading twice, I thought, wait, didn't I just read that? There's a lot of repetition of the idea of a quarrelsome wife.
Noticeably absent is any proverb saying it would be better for a wife to live on the corner of a housetop than in a house with a quarrelsome husband.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: Who could imagine a quarrelsome husband?
[00:32:44] Speaker B: Anyways, it mentions as. This is a great springboard for discussing vocation of husband and wife.
Clearly his wife's caused some difficulties in many ways.
But I guess maybe we'll start with the first part of the question. Why does Solomon say all this about quarrelsome wives, but there's no mention of quarrelsome husband?
[00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Probably just because Proverbs was a textbook for young men.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: And so it's. It is certainly applicable to. For young women and for old men and old women. So you would apply it. But it's. It's like. It's like, hey, you're reading the Boy Scout handbook, and you're like, how come it doesn't say anything about girl stuff? Well, it's because. Boy Scout handbook. And so it seems like proverbs. I remember Dr. Judish said that Proverbs was Solomon's textbook for the University of Jerusalem that he established for the training of kings from all these other lands, because Solomon had all these alliances by marriage with all these other kingdoms. And so they're sending their sons over there to get trained up to be good rulers. In Babylon and Egypt and who knows where else. And so, so Solomon was. Was training all these guys. And so this was his, his textbook for that kind of pre King Ruler University in Jerusalem.
[00:34:05] Speaker B: It's also why it has all these chapters about being led astray by. By the woman who's like seducing you, right? I mean, it doesn't talk anything about the wife being led astray or the woman be. Young woman being led astray by a guy who's doing something similar. Because it's written to a son. It's the same thing that happens. It comes up. I'm sure you've had this in confirmation class. You're in a small catechism.
It's from the perspective of a husband because it was written for the head of the household to teach his family. So sometimes the phrases for girls seem awkward, right? Some of the lines and stuff don't seem. The girls are like, why, why does it say this? Why doesn't it talk about. Well, because it was written to the head of the household. It was written for the dad to teach his family. So it's kind of worded that way. So Solomon does the same thing. It's written, like you said, primarily for his son, right? For a son to grow up into a mature man. So you can take those things, though, and then apply them to all kinds of people according to their vocation.
And. But you just have to. To reimagine it. Like you'd have to reimagine a mom talking to her daughter or dad talking to his daughter and have to apply it in that way.
So there's countless things in there like that, whether it's the quarrelsome wife or the, the seductress or whatever it is. And you just have to step back and say, okay, how then would I apply this to.
To my marriage, my family, if I'm. I'm a woman? Or how should my young daughter think about these things? Because there are temptations, right? On the. The other side, it's not like. It's not like a husband can't be quarrelsome or it's not like a husband can't be causing the problems in the marriage or that a man can't seduce a woman away from her husband or, or all of those things. But it's just written from a dad to his son. So it has to be from that perspective. Otherwise the son would be very confused, right?
He's telling his son, watch out for the.
Don't live in a house with a quarrelsome husband. The son's Going to be very confused.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: That's right. So
[00:36:02] Speaker B: context matters.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: The texts are interesting. So the picture that Solomon seems to have is a foolish son. No, no. Let's see. A contentious wife is a continual dripping is in 19 and then continual dripping in very rainy day is a. And a contentious woman are alike. So this like the Chinese water torture where they drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. That's it. And then, so then it's the Proverbs 21 is the famous one. It's better to dwell in the corner of the housetop than with a brawling woman in a white house.
So you get the picture. And it's not what. You know what's nice about this.
The picture that's being painted is this husband and wife who are in sort of constant affection conversation with one another. You know, that there. That the, the. The expectation for the domestic life in the Scriptures is a. Is a beautiful picture. I mean, it, it goes back to Adam and Eve in the garden and this great help that. That Adam and Eve received from one another and this unity that's there. It's a beautiful picture. I was thinking about that even in the instructions that Paul gives where he says the women should be silent in church, if they have a question they should ask their husband at home, that that's setting up this beautiful picture of theological conversation between husband and wife, that they're talking about the sermon, that they're talking about the scripture, that they're rejoicing in the doctrine and teaching together.
This is, this is part of the expectation of the. Of the family home. So it's beautiful.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: And I think the picture people often have when they read stuff like that. Or it's the same thing. Right. It's the reason our culture has a hard time with Paul in Ephesians saying that wives submit to your husbands. Like they have this idea of, like this dictator husband who doesn't really love his wife but is just kind of abusing his authority. That I think the kind of picture that a lot of people have of what the biblical household looks like, because they've seen it, to be fair, they've seen it abused in that way. Right.
I was talking to one of my daughters the other day about this. The temptation for men on the one hand is to abuse their authority and headship, to misuse it in that way. And that abuse can take various forms.
And then on the opposite end is to abdicate their authority and headship and to be the perpetual child. Right. To not grow up, to not lead, to not do these things. Right. The guy who lets his wife take the kids to church and refuses to go because he's got better things to do like that. That kind of thing is doing that. So those are the kind of things we have to look out for as men. Like the pitfalls on either side, rather than what it's supposed to be in the Bible, which is a headship marked by love and sacrifice and service and, yes, leadership too. But it's leading in a certain way, not just not being a tyrant or a dictator. I think that's where people get confused.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Have we talked about the shape of submission here?
I've been thinking about this like thumbnail. The idea is that there's different shapes of submission and there's different shapes of love.
So that the picture in the Bible is that there's. That every institution has a head and a body, and the head is relating to the body and the body's relating to the head. And what this is. So the body rules the.
Sorry, the head rules the body, and the body is subject to the head.
And so you have that in government. You have the ruler and then you have the. The citizen. You have it in the family where you have the parents and you have the children. You have it in the church where you have the preacher and you have the hearer.
You have it in all the different other institutions where there's a rule. So the shape of ruling is love, and it depends on the institution. So parents are loving their children in a different way than the king is loving his citizens in a different way than the pastor's loving his people. It's love.
So the way I love the people is by teaching and preaching and caring for them.
And they are. So that I rule in the church, they are submitting to the preacher. And how do they do that? By hearing the preaching. So there's a certain shape of submission that it has to do with the institution. So children submit to their parents in a different way than citizens submit to the king.
And the citizens submit to the king in a different way than the Christians submit to the preaching. And I submit to my boss in a different way than I submit to whatever. So there's different shapes of love. There's different shapes of submission. So when Paul's talking about husband and wife, he says, here's another institution. And love and submission have a unique shape.
So the question is, well, how does the husband love his wife? Does husband love his wife like parents love children? Or like a king loves his citizens? Or like a boss loves his workers, or like a pastor loves his parish. He says no, the shape of love for a husband to his wife is of Christ in the church. That's what love looks like. And then of course the wife is submitting to the husband. I don't think we hear that like what should the wife do to the husband? Well, she should submit. Like that's the option. Of course, submission is there. The submission is assumed. The question is, what kind of submission does the bride submit to her bridegroom? Like the children submit to parents, or a worker submits to boss or servant submits to master or citizen submits to king or a Christian submits to the teacher? No, this is the astonishing thing. The submission of a bride for her husband is the same as the submission of the church for her to Christ.
That's the unique shape of submission. That's what it looks like in the home. And so the shape of love and submission, that relationship between the head and the body in marriage is really unique. And it's to be in the Christian marriage, it's to be a reflection of Christ in the church.
So it's not like this is like the we, we take the love and submit as like the, the point.
Like husbands you should love and wives you should submit.
Of course, like that's already assumed.
Love, like what?
Submit like what is the major question? And this is what Paul answers.
Husbands you love like Christ and wives you submit like the church. Wow. Wow. And so, so I mean it's like it's a sort of a mind blowing thing that Paul's outlining there for the Christian marriage, the way, the way it's supposed to be with husband and wife. It's beautiful. It's just, it's be. It's beautiful. You couldn't imagine anything more wonderful that, that, that the Lord gives to the brides and to the bridegrooms, to the Adams and Eves.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: You just gave your next wedding sermon. You've got it done.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Oh, write it down. So you got to remind me what I said.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Yeah, Go back and check this out.
Last question.
It's about worrying that your loved ones won't go to heaven.
So their question concern is this.
How do Christians deal with the fear and sadness that loved ones may not be saved?
I sometimes struggle to feel joy because I worry about whether the people I love will be in heaven with me.
[00:43:31] Speaker A: So this is also what Jesus fear is not the right thing.
The Lord also desires that all would be in heaven with him. So your longing and prayers, your hope that your loved ones, the people that you know will be saved and be an eternal life is the same attitude that God has. Who Paul, for example, says, or Peter. God desires that none would perish, but that all would come to life everlasting. In fact, that's the reason that Jesus hasn't come back yet.
That's what Peter teaches us, that he's not slow about his coming, as some count slowness, but longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to everlasting life.
So the Lord's delay in his return for all these many centuries is precisely because he shares in that same compassion.
And that gives us confidence to know that the Lord is working.
That not only does the Father desire for all to be saved, the Son has died for all people. So that your loved ones sins are suffered for already by Jesus on the cross, they are already atoned, but that the Holy Spirit is working to call, gather and enlighten them and with vigor. Holy Spirit is not indifferent. The Holy Spirit. We remember that Jesus loves our loved ones more than we do, that he cares for them more than we do. So it's in this confidence that we pray, in this confidence that we look for opportunities to speak.
It also is good for us to remember this is an amazing thing, that even Jesus had unbelieving family.
I mean, it says his brothers didn't believe in him. Now, if those brothers were, you know, half brothers or stepbrothers or cousins or whatever, maybe not clear, but anyway, it doesn't matter. They're called brothers.
So we speak of the brothers of Jesus. And Even in John 7, those brothers not only did not believe in Jesus, but they were provoking him to go to Jerusalem so that he would be arrested. They said, are you afraid to go to Jerusalem? And they were trying to send Jesus to his arrest so that even Jesus had unbelieving family.
There's something there for us to think about so that Jesus knows what that's like.
He's the one who taught us that a prophet is not accepted in his own hometown. Which at least will tell us that it's a difficult thing to preach the gospel to those we love the most. Which seems strange. Like it seems like that would be the easiest thing to do.
But it's hard for us to preach and it's hard for them to hear.
So a lot of times our prayers are for the Lord to send someone else, you know, send a strange. A prophet from, from Israel to come down to just preach in Jerusalem or whatever.
So.
So that's. That's very difficult. So anyway, that's Those are just a few kind of thoughts on the, on the difficulty of this situation.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: It'd be weird if we didn't feel sadness over it, right? Like it'd be maybe wrong not to feel sadness over it, over their rejection of the gospel, over their rejection of Christ. Like we're going to feel that sadness even while we look forward in hope and joy to, to what awaits us. But I think in this life, I don't know if there's any way to, to avoid the heaviness of heart that comes with longing for someone to be saved who is rejecting the gospel. I just, I don't. I mean we can find comfort, I think in various parts of the scripture, but I think that's always going to be like, it's always going to be a heavy burden, especially if it's someone you love dearly and you know that they're, they're not, not trusting in Christ right now. I think there's something that is going to weigh on you and I think part of that's like living in this veil of tears, right? It's living in this world knowing there's suffering for us.
They're suffering in this life and sometimes the suffering is that suffering on behalf of others, knowing that they're not, they're not believing in Christ right now. And so we can go to God with that heaviness, I think with that, that sadness of heart and with, with those problems and pray to him and bring those things before him and, and give them over to him and pray. Like you said, that God would send people into their lives that would direct them back to the truth or direct them to the gospel, direct them to a good church, whatever it may be, that God would use people and events in their lives to, to bring them back to Himself. So those are all things we can do. But I think that heaviness of heart will be there as long as you know they're not.
That they're not with Christ. I don't think there's a way for that to, to go away per se.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: It's, it's nice to study the long distance miracles of Jesus where people were like the, the Canaanite woman brings her daughter to Jesus in her prayers. She's back home possessed by a demon and she carries him or the centurion servant. Just speak the word and my servant will be healed. And when we carry those people in our hearts to church, it's good to especially we pray for them all the time and I don't think the Lord hears our prayers Especially when we're at church versus when we're not. But I think this is a nice thing. When we're before the Lord's altar and church. I always recommend to, to the men to have on, you know, a card in their pocket with those that are so dear to them and they're like physically carrying their names before the Lord's altar when they come to the Lord's suppers. This is a pious custom. And to trust that the Lord again is working even when we can't see it and, and that he again loves your loved ones more than you. You do. Which is hopefully a comfort.
[00:49:35] Speaker B: All right, that is it for this week.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: Wow. Thanks YouTube theologians for. For being part of the fun here. Thanks for sending the questions. Thanks Pastor Packer, for, for curating the questions. For rejecting my heretical views. Appreciate that.
It's really good. Send some more Wolfmeel Co contact. And a lot of stuff shows up there as well you're liking. And subscribing to the channel and to these videos also helps. I love someone's out there. They just every video they say for the algorithm.
Cheers. Thank you guys for doing it. Wolfmuller Co is also we can sign up for the free weekly newsletter Wednesday whatnot, which is a lot of fun.
So we'll see you. We'll see you back here soon. God's peace be with you.
